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What am I actually doing?

mr1992

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Hey there,

I've got less of a question regarding functionality, but rather what it is I'm actually doing and how may method may perhaps negatively impact the finished product. Due to issues with mould, I've started fermenting my baccy when it is not yet fully cured or even dried; I ferment by pressing leaves into a mason jar which I open every day. I make sure my leaves a wet rather than moist, which gives them a nice colour finish (turning very dark to black), and compressing them quite a bit. This takes care of even badly colour-cured leaves; the taste is nice and they're on the stronger side actually. The kind I grow are cigar varieties (Havanna, Havanna Corojo, Pereg, and Pergeu this year). I did the same last year and couldn't distinguish between fully cured leaf and nearly uncured/yellow leaf - did I sort of give it some flue curing with water? Did I cook it? It didn't turn mush/compost, despite copious amounts of water used. It doesn't taste like Cavendish, either, tried that once and turned out as something completely different from this.

So, yeah, I'm a little puzzled. It works, it tends to have a rather sweet flavour though still very much dark/cigar-like, and smells a bit like honey (the tobacco itself, though there's a hint of that in the smoke). Temperatures are between 52°C and 55°C / 125°F and 130°F; the fermentation box is a small, well-insulated wood-and-styrofoam box.

Definitely looking forward to your thoughts as to what is going on there :p
 

GreenDragon

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I think the closest analogy would be you are making a form of perique with uncured tobacco, which is why it's still rather sweet. If you want it to taste like cigar tobacco, you have to fully color cure it before fermentation, and it needs oxygen to ferment (for cigars) which you are denying it by the excess water and sealed jars.
 

deluxestogie

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The closest process that yours comes to is that used to make twist rope in Brazil.


The link to the first video will show its appearance and uses. The second video shows its actual production. Both are narrated in Portuguese, but you really don't need to understand any of it. They twist fully wilted, still green leaves into a tightly wound rope, then allow it to "cure" that way.

My understanding is that the compression and tension disrupt the cells of the leaf lamina, spilling their contents to the exterior. It's my guess that a combination of intrinsic leaf enzymes (oxidase, peroxidase) together with microbes (predominantly yeast like Pichia anomala, or even common yeast used for bread or beer making, but ubiquitous in the air) oxidize the proteins and carbohydrates, and ultimately provide a prune-like aroma. As with any open microbial fermentation, it would be subject to odd or undesirable outcomes.

Bob
 

mr1992

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Thanks a lot for your replies; quite interesting indeed, it had crossed my mind that it may be Perique-related, but I'd assumed it would require far more pressure than merely pressing in the leaves and screwing them tight with the lid. Don't get me wrong, I love the flavour, it's only regrettable that differences in strain don't quite shine through. Doesn't make much of a difference which leaf I use, they tend to have minor differences only. Side by side, you'd never know which strain it is. Could also be my palate's a bit dead, so perhaps my assessment isn't saying much. I guess it makes sense that it's Perique and/or pressure related; last year, there were many crystals forming on there which someone had identified as sugars coming out of the leaf; also, there was some weird stuff forming on some leaves after they'd finished fermenting, which retrospectively felt and looked a lot like yeast. It definitely wasn't mould, never knew what it was, though, but it does make loads more sense now. Does this also explain why really badly cured leaf turns out fine as well? Put some in there that were pretty green, and they got out without any hint of burnt hair or anything. I presume the colour can be attributed to the water. When I set out to grow my own years ago, I'd never have thought growing and especially finishing tobacco would be such a science :D

My intention is to make cigar tobacco, though since I supply all of my family (parents and girlfriend), it's fairly exclusively used for dark cigarette tobacco (manage to get the odd cigar, or rather cigarillo, rolled here and there, but spatial constraints mean I need to be very conservative with how many I make if I want them the baccy to last till the next growing season). That being said, one of the perks of this approach is that it can go straight from the jar into the fag (after drying, obviously) and it already tastes great. Dunno whether it gets much better with time since regrettably, I've never been able to store them for any significant period of time. To complicate matters, the only place I can cure is in the basement, which worked wonderfully last year due to extraordinarily high temperatures, but this year, coupled with more rain, it just screams mould. Since it's a small room, I have to hang them in bunches of 30 leaves, which doesn't help much with the mould issue, but is still loads better than any barns I've hung them so far, which have led to losses of up to 80-90% of my harvest. Simply storage of dried baccy seems to work fine, however. Oh well, I've put up a fan in there, hope that helps things a bit.

EDIT:

Forgot to add the rope tobacco. Looking at the finished product, it is quite reminiscent of what's coming of of my jars, not quite as dark perhaps, but close. Forgot to further mention that I do all my curing without the midrib due to its tendency to a) catch mould and b) snap easily when forcing it into the jar.
 
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mr1992

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UPDATE:

Well, I guess I was wrong. At least for this year; all the info is accurate for last year's harvest, yet this year's is odd, or rather frustrating.Two days ago, I've checked on a jar of lower leaf that has fermented for about two weeks to assess on its progress. Well, it's bloody sweet - but no nicotine or throat hit nor any hint at cigar tobacco whatsoever. In fact, it was more reminiscent of incense or the sweet fragrance you'd get from a maize/corn wrapper, not at all like tobacco. The only other time I'd smelt something similar was when I'd burnt some dried leaf from a plant that didn't make it into the field and spent its time in its plastic cup. I'd thought it may simply be bad lower leaf I'd better discarded. Until I tried some from a different jar holding middle leaf from the same strain, and it had the same flavour. No body, no nicotine, just sweetness. Feared it may be the technique and thought of lowering the temperature; whilst packing a new jar, a thought came to me and I tore off a piece from unfermented but dried tobacco, which smelt the exact same when burnt. Repeated the process a couple of times: Regardless of colour, it's as if you stood in a bloody cathedral (some had turned rather dark actually).

The thing is, I don't get what went differently there. Some plants were calcium deficient, and some showed premature yellowing leading to premature harvesting of these leafs; I've done that in the past and so far, they'd turned out fine. I've even had calcium-deficient plants last year, yet those leafs actually turned out splendidly and were among my favourite leaves. However, for the most part, especially with leafs from the middle of the plant, the plants were a decent height, showed no signs of deficiency, and had good leaves; they looked far, far better than the plants I've had last year. Considering the scores of grasshoppers munching away at my plants, nicotine levels shouldn't be an issue either. I've topped them early, first signs of any buds showing, and removed suckers just as quickly. Granted, it was too jars I've checked (the first I've taken out; all lower leafs tasted the same). Essentially, I've done everything the same I did last year, safe for airing the ground and removing weeds due to time constraints. I've also added some sand to the soil to make it less dense (lots of clay in the soil around here) and fertilised with lots of coffee grounds and horse dung - again, the plants I've harvested look healthy and have grown to ~2m tall (some have stayed small, but that's always the case and due to lack of sunlight). The leafs themselves are rather thin after drying/fermenting, which is always the case; when plucking them, they're full of water and rather fleshy.

I guess I'll wait and see what other jars will bring. As for those I've already done, I dunno what to do with them. I'd thought about maybe cooking a few with a little water and infusing the rest with the fluid, to perhaps raise their flavour levels and nicotine (if it isn't all broken down in the process of cooking).

Yeah, bit confused here, do please post if you've got any thoughts :)
 

Charly

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You said the leaves from previous year was better ? Then try to analyse the differences between those two years.
If you add sand to the ground, you have to know that nutrients will leach faster and the plants will have less to eat.
How about the watering ? Did it rain a lot more this year ? Did you water them too much ?
How about the sun ? Was it more shiny last year ? or less ?
How about the maturity of the leaves ?
If you cure your leaves with too much water, it might rinse the nicotine and the flavors out of the leaves.
Just some thoughts, as Bob said there are too many variables involved here to be sure of anything.
 

deluxestogie

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If you follow a common, accepted procedure, yet encounter problems with the results, understanding the cause of your outcome is often difficult to identify from a distance. Since your method is quite novel, what might have gone wrong is totally baffling.

Bob
 

mr1992

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Thanks for your replies; I'm starting to believe it's got nothing to do with the method itself but how I grew my plants. I've burnt some of my unfermented tobacco and the smell was similar - sweet, no note of burnt hair, and reminiscent of incense. Hence, I gather the problem lies in the soil, though I don't know what deficiencies would lead to such an outcome. The only time I recall having smelt a similar scent was when I, out of curiosity, burnt some leaf of seeplings that didn't make it onto the field and whose leafs had wilted a bit.
Now, some leaves I've harvested a little early since they were starting to yellow; the rest after I'd topped them. I know some suffered from lack of calcium, but not all of them. Stunted plants (smaller than 1m / 3.3ft) I didn't touch at all. Leaf size on my Havannas tended to be on the smaller side a bit, Pereg didn't grow all that tall and wanted to bloom a bit early; Havanna Corojo showed the biggest signs of deficiency, has massive leafs and is late to bloom. I think I was wrong with the assessment here, from the pictures I've seen now, it may likely be nitrogen-deficient https://naldc.nal.usda.gov/download/CAT86200607/PDF , p. 6. I don't know, though, since I had had the same problem last year already with these plants, and their flavour and nicotine were abundant.
 

deluxestogie

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I'll add one more possibility. When I first attempted to flue-cure green tobacco, I raised the chamber temperature too rapidly--above 104ºF, before the leaf had yellowed. The result was the aroma of cooking asparagus. That is, asparagine was being released into the air--the same as when you cook asparagus. The flue-cure was ruined, and the leaf remained eternally green.

The cooking-asparagus aroma was a vaguely pleasant one. But it bore no resemblance to a tobacco aroma. I have since come to recognize that aroma as an indication that leaf is being heated before it is fully color-cured.

Bob
 

mr1992

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I'll add one more possibility. When I first attempted to flue-cure green tobacco, I raised the chamber temperature too rapidly--above 104ºF, before the leaf had yellowed. The result was the aroma of cooking asparagus. That is, asparagine was being released into the air--the same as when you cook asparagus. The flue-cure was ruined, and the leaf remained eternally green.

The cooking-asparagus aroma was a vaguely pleasant one. But it bore no resemblance to a tobacco aroma. I have since come to recognize that aroma as an indication that leaf is being heated before it is fully color-cured.

Bob

I think I've smelt that, too, when fermenting; the resulting flavour was like tobacco, though. The problem I'm faced with now I assume is completely removed from the fermentation method I've described. I air-dry and hang them in hands; room temperature varies according to what the temperature is outside. The aroma I've observed was present in those that have simply dried there, before being fermented. Hence my assumption that something about the soil isn't right, yet I've so far have to come across someone whose leaves turned out the same. Normally, leaves that dry too quickly have that distinct burnt hair smell about them when you burn it; not so here.
 

mr1992

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*was like tobacco with a floral and honey-like admixture. It was a very pleasant smoke actually.
 

mr1992

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@mr1992 Did you continue using this method? How did it go?

Hey matheuese, I did continue using it, and the low nicotine issue disappeared entirely when I put in leaves from farther up the plant. Now, it does smell and taste cigar-y when burnt. The leaves themselves, however, smell a bit like bread. I suspect that yeast plays some role here; it doesn't impact the flavour though, imho. One issue with this method, however, which I don't think I've mentioned before, is that the leaves become quite thin, regardless of how thick they were when I harvested them. Impossible to shred properly, gotta do it by hand with a knife. They were of decent thickness right after curing, and only turned thin after jar-fermenting them. I've observed the same thing with a perique attempt I'd started last year, which failed because the jars burst (quite a bloody mess); I'd tried pressing them when they were still green, so a lot of juice came out (taken from plants that didn't grow properly and I'd just left anyway). Bent the clamp as well, the thing couldn't handle the pressure. Saved the remaineder by jar-fermentation, just stuffed it in there with the juice and periodically opened the lit to let moisture escape. The result was interesting; many of them remained rather green, but they're smokeable. Undefineable flavour. I guess it's a workable approach for saving tobacco that'd otherwise have to be discarded. It also helped that I reduced the box's dimensions from far too big to snugly accomodating the jars; reduces heat loss, too. The leaves, however, are fragile and thin, some that didn't get any of the juice when drying after fermentation are also translucent.
 

mr1992

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A perhaps unnecessary update, but for anyone who cares, I've been thinking about this and reading up on the forum. Yeast may play a role, but I'm not sure anymore. In this thread https://fairtradetobacco.com/thread...other-age-old-recipes.5525/page-2#post-104447 there was talk of "Oil of Havana", presumed to perhaps be a concoction of heated up tobacco juice that is sprayed on leaves to give a richer aroma. A similar post on another site also involving Gdaddy had a link to an article on black cigars which "dyed" hands and lips, presumably due to overuse.

The reason I've come to link these two things is that this black residue and tobacco juice itself is quite present in the jars. The leaves get quite wet, they aren't only brought back to case so they're flexible but really quite moist, with some water sprayed in the jar for good measure every now and again. At first, I had presumed that the pressure was in some way instrumental - it isn't. I had a packed jar and not enough baccy that filled another fully, so I just lightly pressed it into the other. The results in the second, more lightly packed one were actually better, at least colour-wise and from the texture of the leaf. They all had a assumed a very even, almost black hue.

What I presume is going on is that the fair amount of water used in this approach gets a lot of the stuff inside the leaf out of it, creating this tobacco juice/"Oil of Havana" that then dyes the leaves from the outside. Since the humidity can't go anywhere, it sticks to the leafs; especially the areas touching the glass appear darkest, sometimes a fairly nice black colour. When I had too much fluid/tried to cram in too many wet leaves into a jar, it "boilt over", forming a dark gooey substance that would run down and dry on the glass. In earlier cases, I had them way too full and that would make the jar stick to the bottom of the box, in some instances even bake the lid shut. At the same time, the leaf itself does darken, so there is some fermentation going on. Leftover chlorophyll appears to be processed; there's no hint of it left and the leaves are brown when they're not blackened. I wonder whether this is because most of my leaves tend to be on the thin side (probably should get my soil checked out, though I fear it's because of where my field is located and to do with the sun rather than anything else). I suppose this would also explain why all the different leaves taste identical - they're mixing the flavours in the juice and create a uniform taste. Only grew one strain this year, but last time, I had different strains in the same jar. As a last point, the bottommost leaves are probably toasted; they're still flexible and all, but you can see they got too much heat. I'll redesign the box at some point, but yeah, just thought I'd share my thoughts for anyone that may care.
 

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You can definitely get brown juice without pressure. Pressure will help if it's not all that wet though. I think you're right about it extracting elements from inside the tobacco. Pressure does mechanical damage though, so it's logical to think that it will aid in the process.

Bread smell, depending on what you mean could be yeast—there is sugar in tobacco—, but it's also possibly either simply the way it smells or even the effect of toasting starch which you reported.

I wish I understood all this business. Maybe if we repeat it enough, we'll just be able to accept it for whatever it is.

On a side note, I made a carotte with high case l'assomption 201, a Canadian cigar tobacco, and whatever it did made it much more familiarly cigar flavored.
 

mr1992

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UPDATE:

Been a few years since I've last posted, but I haven't quit testing and growing baccy. Last year, although I've messed up in a variety of ways, the results couldn't have been better. Apparently I was a bit silly all the years before and now I've taken some pictures to show what I'm doing rather than merely relaying it with words.

First off, I've started planting far too late this year, leading me to do an emergency harvest in November. This was possible thanks to the fact that temperatures were unusually mild until then; normal harvesting time is August/September. The plants weren't quite there yet, but it was either that or writing the entire harvest off. Thought I might as well take my chances.

Due to the sheer volume and the fact that it was not a gradual replacement and additions, I had to dry a fair number of the leaves in the heating room. Utterly imperfect, but anywhere else I'd have got mould galore. Hence, I've had a fair bit flash-dry green.

1673880420252.jpeg

(Note: I didn't dry it bunched up like that, that's just for the picture, most of the leaves are either fermented or fermenting)

The first batch I did ended up smelling icky, like feces. Further fermentation didn't make them better, unfortunately. I presume it had less to do with the fact that some are still green, but rather because some leaves had begun to rot on the plant (it had started to get quite cold) and I missed them in my haste to solo-harvest upwards of 100 plants in one afternoon. Those were also the first ones to be dry and ready for fermentation.

I'm confident in this assumption, because the second batch, with more scrutiny applied to the leaves, had great fragrance and looked like this:

1673880684614.jpeg
Giving a random leaf a test yesterday, it had a pronounced cigarry flavour, albeit very much on the light side concerning strength. Never had one quite like it; I don't know what factors contributed to it being this good. Might make a cigar at some point and see how it holds up. As of now, it's the closest thing tasting like a Spanish "Ducados", one of the brands I sought to emulate when I set out to grow my own years ago. I've forgotten which strain I used (busy year, tobacco obviously didn't receive as much attention as it should have), so it may have been that, too, effecting the flavour. Leafs are a bit darker than in the picture; the flash made them a lighter than they are. Colour variation ranges from the light brown up there to a near black. Yet. they're still inexplicably thin, regardless of where on the plant they were; many of them can be used as cigar/cigarillo wrappers. Done that, burns evenly without an issue, at least with shortfiller, dunno how it behaves with longfiller.

Perhaps I should've included it further up, but here's a break-down of my fermentation method with pictures:

The box itself looks like this, fairly simple design I've sawed crudely by hand:
1673880837872.jpeg

There's another lid covering this I didn't bother to take a picture of; the black cable is a heat sensor for the thermostat, which in turn regulates the heat cable.

1673880983126.jpeg

Thermostat reads 49.6°C (121,28°F) after opening the box. Never mind the dirt on the socket, had some renovation work throughout the basement that dusted everything with grime I haven't got around to cleaning yet everywhere.

1673881167359.jpeg

WIP, a bunch of leaves currently fermenting. I've changed my approach to a certain degree; to make life easier for myself and apparently also help fermentation, I've now taken to sorting the leaves according to size, rolling them up and stuffing them in there. Leaves are soaking wet, and I make sure there is as much moisture in there as possible. You wouldn't believe the number of leaves that fit in those jars, it's incredible. The black gunk you see at the bottom right is from liquid that has escaped from earlier fermentation batches. Smells like tobacco (duh) and it is rock-hard, impossible to remove. I've actually cut myself on it once because it'd stuck to the lid.

Leaves are deribbed, but fermentation with midrib is obviously possible. However, it risks tearing the leaves, making them unusable if you want to have cigar or cigarillo wrappers.

The heat cable enters through a hole I've drilled through the bottom; there's a lengthy unheated bit that leads outside to be plugged in, all the heatable surface is inside the box. Tried to get the sensor through there as well, but the hole was too tight and I was anxious not to lose too much heat. Once I've got the time, I'll redesign the box, putting the jars on a rack, suspended in the middle of the chamber. Additionally, I'll see to actually heating the entire chamber from multiple sides, so the jars get heated evenly to the desired temperature. The jars fortunately allow me to not care so much about the material I use, so I'll see what I'll come up with and how it works. Once I've got a new design that works, I'll post it here.

1673881329094.jpeg

This jar has been in the box since Thursday last week, i.e. ~5 days. One thing I've figured out you need to be careful with is that if the jar is too full, a fair bit of the baccy might come your way when you open it. You can see it pressing against the lid up there. Apparently physics is still at play, meaning when you heat things up, they expand. And apparently, tobacco then acts like a jack-in-the-box; you've got a helluva time getting it back in. Hence, I only open the lid every other day, just slightly, to let some gases escape. After ~10 days or so, I take out all the baccy, add some moisture, and put it in for another stint until I like the odour I'm greeted with as well as the colour. All the green leaves shown initially turn brown or near black, without a hint at chlorophyll.

One thing I've figured out by now is that if you smoke it straight from the jar, it may still have a bit of a tangy taste. If you give it some time just sitting there in a box, it'll improve a bit. In other words, it can be used straight away to flavour cigarettes, but for smoking it pure, it needs a while for all the ick to dissipate and go through some cycles of changing ambient air humidity.
 
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