Bagging flowers for seed/which plants to select?

[DGBAMA]

Example variety is my "Lonnie's Havannah", but applies to all. Which plants are the best to bag for seed?

I see this from two perspectives. I currently have bud bags on my first two to bloom.......strongest and healthiest plants. No Brainer.

But from another perspective for future seed will these seeds represent "typical for variety" traits or did I bag the "freaks"?

Out of 25 plants, the two currently bagged showed flower buds over a week early, compared to the majority (typical?) which 80% are now showing buds but not flowering. Should I keep for seed the two healthiest "typical" plants or the two strongest plants that bloomed early and grew the fastest?

 

[Knucklehead]

True to Type means that they look like Lonnie's Havana plants should look like, rather than a little different. This should be easy to tell since you have so many of each variety. Do they look like the majority of the plants of that variety? True to type should be first priority. Bagging the healthiest plants is a good idea if they are naturally stronger and healthy, rather than being influenced by a better placement in the patch, better light, better drainage, etc. Are they healthier because of that one seed or another reason? Bagging the earlest to bud is a good idea if you want to influence the strain to bud early after several generations of bagging the earliest budding plants. A good idea for northern growers, but is that the trait you want to influence most for your area? You have a really long grow season, the early budding may be a desireable trait for a two grow season. Bagging the plants with the least suckering is a good idea if you want to produce plants with fewer suckers in several generations. It takes about seven years of careful selection to influence these traits into the line.

 

[deluxestogie]

My guess is that Lonnie's Havana is not yet a stable variety. That is to say, there is still a significant degree of variation within that home-brew variety. So I would expect that different growers of Lonnie's Havana will be selecting different "ideal" or "typical" characteristics--it doesn't yet have a "typical." The greater the inherent variability (instability) within a newly introduced variety, the greater the need to bag multiple examples of similarly selected "typical" plants, and combine the seed into a single batch--perhaps even from multiple growers. It often takes 7 or more years of manual selection of a desired plant type to render the seed pool stable.

For established, stable varieties, there's no problem with bagging the earliest to bud, so long as you're willing to yank the bag and top that plant, if it turns out to be not typical of that variety. Bagging several "typical" plants is always a good idea.

Bob

 

[DGBAMA]

Thanks guys. Just was looking at it two different ways and looking for as much input as possible.

As far as the LH specifically, the two early bloomers are "true to form" as compared to the other plants by appearance, leaf shape & size; just taller and healthier looking. However in a row of 12 there are 9 very uniform plants, all same height and all budding at the same time so even though a little smaller, wondering if i should keep my seed from this group of plants instead of the two biggest ones.

Maybe should start a thread for the LH so members growing it can discuss and establish "typical" traits and seed plant seleccting criteria.

 

[DGBAMA]

So observed the Havannah plants a little more carefully and the two "early bloomers" seem to be simply bigger and healthier. The "group/typical" ones that are now budding have the same # of potential viable leaves and growth characteristics as the big ones that are bagged.

 

[AmaxB]

I have one variety (A-56-N) out of a row 27 plants long 1 got bagged and has flowered about a week ago at just under 5 feet. None of the others have made buds yet and are in the area of 6 and a half feet tall. Go figure.....
All this time I have not thought much of this plant has looked healthy but was small and slow in growing. Until the last week and a half, it seems to have come out of sleep and is rocking now....

 

[DGBAMA]

I have one variety (A-56-N) out of a row 27 plants long 1 got bagged and has flowered about a week ago at just under 5 feet. None of the others have made buds yet and are in the area of 6 and a half feet tall. Go figure.....
All this time I have not thought much of this plant has looked healthy but was small and slow in growing. Until the last week and a half, it seems to have come out of sleep and is rocking now....

Hence the topic. Bag the first to bloom? Or bag the couple healthiest ones when the majority come into bloom at the same time.

 

[AmaxB]

Hence the topic. Bag the first to bloom? Or bag the couple healthiest ones when the majority come into bloom at the same time.

I have the one bagged but will most likely snap it and bag 2 others when they bud. Hey I'm a Rookie man but next year I'll have more tools in my box.

 

[DGBAMA]

First year for me too. Want to do it right and learning as I go. From what I see....you have nailed it.

I Did not want to get in depth. Grow, dry, smoke.....save a ton of money for as little work as possible. Little did I know.

 

[Knucklehead]

Hence the topic. Bag the first to bloom? Or bag the couple healthiest ones when the majority come into bloom at the same time.

It comes down to what you want to influence in your variety. Right now, your early budding plant, being true to type in every other way, is an exception. If you want seed that produce true to type plants, but with a shorter Days to Maturity, bag the early budding plants that are typical in every other way for the next several years (seven years or so). Then you can end up with that variety holding true to type, but with most of the plants budding earlier, rather than just one or two out of several. Same with suckers. Say you like everything about a particular variety except for the fact that it suckers like crazy. Look at your plants and know which ones are true to type. True to Type is your first selection. Eliminate all the others from contention. Out of the ones that are true to type, bag the one that suckers the least. Do this every year (seven years or so), out of your true to type plants, and you can end up with seed that produce plants that are true to type in every way, but the majority of the plants will sucker less than the plants from your original seed.

 

[deluxestogie]

Of course, there's the unanswered question of how the leaf cures, tastes, burns. Judging only from the appearance of the growing plant, we don't have a clue. Maybe that slower one makes the perfect smoke.

Selection to alter a varietal is not wise, unless you seriously plan to keep at it for at least a half decade, expect to test it against a range of seasonal variations and pests common to your area, and then provide it with a distinct name--"Bob's Runty Little Cricket-free."

If you alter the variety, then distribute the seed as the previously named variety, you do a disservice.

Bob

 

[JessicaNicot]

My guess is that Lonnie's Havana is not yet a stable variety. That is to say, there is still a significant degree of variation within that home-brew variety. So I would expect that different growers of Lonnie's Havana will be selecting different "ideal" or "typical" characteristics--it doesn't yet have a "typical." The greater the inherent variability (instability) within a newly introduced variety, the greater the need to bag multiple examples of similarly selected "typical" plants, and combine the seed into a single batch--perhaps even from multiple growers. It often takes 7 or more years of manual selection of a desired plant type to render the seed pool stable.

For established, stable varieties, there's no problem with bagging the earliest to bud, so long as you're willing to yank the bag and top that plant, if it turns out to be not typical of that variety. Bagging several "typical" plants is always a good idea.

Bob

I don't know anything about this variety in particular, but I can tell you that micro-environmental variation will cause a week or two (or more in extreme cases) variation in flowering times. not even in the best kept commercial fields (growing thousands of plants of the same genotype) and under the best possible environmental conditions will see uniform flowering, but more or less a window of two weeks. this variation exists because even in heavily tilled fields that have been in use for decades, there are small variations in the local composition of the soil (which can impact water retention, etc), as well as an uneven dispersal of micro-organisms and other soil critters that can have impacts on nutrient availability or health of the root system. the lesson here being that even in established systems that work to achieve as much uniformity as possible, you'll still get variation within an inbred line so you cant expect that you'll see uniformity in your own backyard either.