Talking Semi Auto Shot Guns

[Jitterbugdude]

my favourite in my collection is one of your American ones. Hope this makes you all a little jealous.
Its an 1897 Winchester 12ga Trench Gun and from its serial number know that it was manufactured in the first production run for the US forces in 1939. So the powers that be knew then that America would be drawn into WW11. These models came from Winchester with the flaming bomb and property of the US on the left side of the receiver the WW1 models were hand stamped. These pump actions slam fire very impressive. Can understand why the Germans didn't like them in WW1. The ability to fit a bayonet is always a nice touch on a home defence shotgun as is the hand guard so I don't burn my fingers . I also have a Spencer that was in your Civil War and a Winchester lever action shot gun with serial number 5006 which puts its manufacture as Jan/Feb 1897
And just finished shredding some tobacco for cigarettes amazing how much less my wife and I are both smoking with this grow your own tobacco. Much nicer smoke nice papers using the Vera Cruz Midnight and did a count and we have between us only smoked 2500 since christmas 2015

Dam..... want to trade some tobacco for them?.....

 

[chuditch]

Nope and you cant have my half sized Napoleon (which makes it a mountain gun) or my Browning M2 .50 made by General Motors in WW2 either.

Dam..... want to trade some tobacco for them?.....

 

[Jitterbugdude]

How did you manage to get so many cool guns?
In my life I've regretted not buying my neighbor's German Schmeiser (he was a WW2 vet). I've also regretted not buying an original 3 band Enfield for $100.00!
A buddy of mine keeps trying to sell my an all original serial numbered German Luger (P-08). His father took it off a German during WW2. He wants the going price.... which is way more than I'm willing to spend.

 

[Gavroche]

i have a karabiner Enfield Parker Hale black powder 58 caliber...It is wonderful with 3 grammes ...The bullet is a minié with skirt

 

[chuditch]

Taken me years and years get my heart set on something then look and wait for it to appear at an auction or another collector down sizing or something similar. The good antique firearms from America would have come to Australia in the gold rush era. The miners from the US coming to Australia the lure of gold and brought their firearms with them. The likes of the Spencer I know from its serial number was issued to the 11 Illinois or 12 Washington Cav regiments. (Perfect would have been it being at Gettysburg but no such luck) and we know from the stamps on the stock it was one of around 5500 that was refurbished and sent out to fight the Indians. Would have been sold off as military surplus and some miner bought it. I have a rifle that was bought by the new country of Australia in 1902 and is a 99.9% certainty to been on the first fleet of soldiers from Australia 1915 the beginning of ANZAC. Have some good Winchester model 92's which the US doesn't have as that model superseded by the model 94 so the 92's went to South America, Australia, Africa. Just enjoy the collecting and then getting to look at them

How did you manage to get so many cool guns?
In my life I've regretted not buying my neighbor's German Schmeiser (he was a WW2 vet). I've also regretted not buying an original 3 band Enfield for $100.00!
A buddy of mine keeps trying to sell my an all original serial numbered German Luger (P-08). His father took it off a German during WW2. He wants the going price.... which is way more than I'm willing to spend.

 

[chuditch]

Very nice is it an original in .577 or the later .58 cal? The minie works quite well. Being that you are French did you have a relative at Waterloo? I did as a member of the Royal Scots Greys. My wife got to visit Waterloo and go to France and see the first world war battlefields while she was working in Belgium for six months about 10 years ago. My great uncle was the last man to be Killed in action for his unit, again the Royal Scots Greys 4 days before the armistice and he is buried there in French soil.

i have a karabiner Enfield Parker Hale black powder 58 caliber...It is wonderful with 3 grammes ...The bullet is a minié with skirt

 

[Gavroche]

It's a real Parker Hale in 577 , the barrel is signed Parker Hale and i have the macaroon engraved(burnt) on the butt(stick) of the rifle. But it is a recent manufacturing with the last artillery Parker Hale.He(It) waged war thus never.
For the war, I have a revolver mas 1873St Etienne off 1881... a chassepot and the karabine captain Gras

 

[AmaxB]

Some nice collection stuff, yes can cause some foam at the MOUTH! Smokes had mentioned the TROMIX people went and had a peek - Wonder if my wallet could handle that.
The Mini 12 gauge Siaga built from the AK47 plate form. Very nice but I ask myself would cost be justified to need and use. I've been looking, reading, and learning - hard - very hard. I'm an old school hunting kind of guy and know little of self defense hardware. Been cramming as though I have an exam next week and glad I started this thread - helped clear some mud from the water right away. I'm looking at it from the angle of -
Cost - Effective - Use ... is it priced fairly - fit the budget, will it get the job done, can it be used for more than self defense (can I hunt with it). I am not new to fire arms just behind the times as to what can be had. Ammo cost also plays a part. I have settled on shotgun the VEPR 12 there are a few folks selling it and cost range from 799 and up for the same shotgun out of the box from the factory with exception to stock. The gun does have a cycling problem with cheaper lower powered shells. It is made to run heavy loads. This can be fixed with a few light tweaks if you feel your hands are up to it. If not a few low cost changes can be made. Then she'll run anything you feed her. I'll post some info on this. Why this one? Stock can be change in minutes, field cleaning is easy (few parts), with decent sighting can reach out 200 yards accurately - consistently, can eat 2 3/4 and 3 inch shells, can mix shell types in the mag (slug-bird-slug-bird or what ever), can use a slide stock taking it to auto type performance, 5 to 12 round mags, or a high capacity drum, just a well rounded beast not pretty but useful.

A look at one TROMIX
.

 

[AmaxB]

I won't go into the tweaks instead will get 2 birds with on stone the cycling with low power cheap shells and 922r compliance for the VEPR 12 the first 3 to 4 items on the list should do it.... CORRECTIONS IF I AM WRONG PLEASE. Parts associated with the firing and trigger groups should fix cycling problem...

The LIST:
922R compliance

VEPR 12 SGM 12 RD MAGAZINE - Made in the USA Counts for 3 parts
43.00

GAS PISTON VEPR 12 PUCReplaces the factory Vepr 12 gas puc to give you 1 922r compliant part.
Made in the USA. Counts as 1 part
19.00

TRIGGER GROUP- MODIFIED SAIGA/VEPR FIRE CONTROL GROUP
This is a drop in trigger group for Saiga shotguns (12's, 20's and 410's), Vepr Shotguns, and all Saiga 223, 5.45x39, and 7.62x39 Rifles.
Made in the USA Counts as 3 922R compliant parts
45.00

Full power recoil spring replaces your worn out OEM factory springs.
Made in the USA. 1 Spring per order. Counts as 1 part
5.95

CAROLINA VEPR 12 TACTICAL BILLET TRI-RAIL
Aluminum Tri-Rail replaces the lower factory forearm (Note: the upper forearm stays in place).
Made in the USA and counts for 1 922r compliant part.
119.95

CHOKE SAIGA/VEPR 12 MUZZLE BRAKE ADAPTER "FULL CHOKE"
Made in the USA. Screws on to the existing factory threads. Counts as 1 part
54.95

BRAKE LOCK NUT(BARREL NUT) FOR SAIGA/VEPR 12- RUSSIAN STYLE
Made in the USA -Threaded M22x.75RH counts as 1 part
8.95

SPRING KIT 1 FOR SAIGA12 / VEPR12 / FURY SHOTGUNS
Made in the USA can count for up to 2 -3 parts
25.80

JTE SHOTGUN PERFORMANCE GUIDE ROD works with VEPR 12
It will retrofit into the existing recoil system by simply removing the the factory pin that holds the rod in place and inserting the new performance rod and replace the factory pin.
You can still use the existing dust cover and springs, or you can update to the improved CSS-Full-Power-Spring and CSS-Spring-1 for superior performance. Counts as 1 part ?
29.95

JTE Performance Power Hammer Spring /Main Spring for All Saiga and AK variants
Give your weapon complete reliability by replacing your factory mainspring with this American manufactured, silicon spring steel, Performance Power main spring.
Dramatically smooths and improves trigger pull while maintaining the same factory level striking force.
This spring will not fall off the trigger legs, break or twist like the factory stock spring. Counts as 1 part ?
9.95

AK47, SKS, SAIGA AND VEPR RIFLES 5-PIECE COLORED FRONT SIGHT SET - Counts as 1 part ?
$4.95

JTE Performance Power Hammer Spring /Main Spring for All Saiga and AK variants
Counts as 1 part ?
9.95

Parts can be found here http://www.carolinashooterssupply.com/category_s/1853.htm

 

[AmaxB]

M16 full auto verses the Bumpski
.

.
Picture that on a freaking 12 gauge

 

[AmaxB]

More on the 922r fed reg. it is my understanding - there are twenty parts listed that come into play for an imported semi-auto if my import has x number of parts on the list:
15 parts I would need 5 changed to us made parts
17 ---7 parts
20 ---10 parts
13 ---3 parts
just from what I've been reading - I could have this all wrong.

 

[AmaxB]

OK I've been wearing this out A bumpski for the VEPR am going to leave it alone now...
can get R hand only here http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...umpski+Bump+Fire+Stock+for+VEPR+12+Right+Hand

See it.

 

[AmaxB]

This is a better Vepr if you look at the specs closely - example back cover rail is wielded no rivets - cost a little more but https://www.legionusa.com/russian-vepr-12-shotgun-rpk.html

 

[Jitterbugdude]

The nice thing about the Fostech Bumpski is that if you own a right handed model you can buy a left handed finger rest for about $85.00. With a Slide Fire if you buy a right handed version you are stuck with a right handed version.

 

[Gdaddy]

The bump fire is definitely fun but is expensive to operate since it eats ammo very quickly. Also, even with a 10 round mag it burns through the ammo in a couple of seconds. You spend more time changing mags than shooting. The gun moves around quite a bit (watch the video). I tried it and it took some getting used to and is different than a real machine gun. The machine gun you pull back on the trigger to fire. The bump stock requires you to push the front grip of the gun forward to fire. You'll need to purchase the higher capacity 8 or 10 round magazines. (2- 10 round mags will run around $220). This amount of ammo won't last long in bump-fire mode. (did I mention expensive )

The Vepr 12 looks like a great gun and the dampening spring helps to eliminate the shock of the 12 gauge blast. Be aware that semi-auto shotguns generally don't like cheap ammo and can jam when using it, so for home defense use the best you can buy.

 

[Jitterbugdude]

30 rnd mag is the only way to go

 

[Gdaddy]

30 rnd mag is the only way to go

That would be the one to have for sure. Ain't cheap.

I saw one video where the additional weight of the larger 10 round magazine caused the 'bump fire' to operate inconsistently. I can't help but wonder what the additional weight of the 30 round drum would do.

 

[AmaxB]

I've been looking at this real hard and what I have found is the 12 round SGM mags may have a weak feed spring. Also the cycling issues in general can be addressed by changing out the trigger group and a few other springs. The muzzle movement can be pretty much fixed with the use of a good muzzle brake. Not saying it won't jump, just won't jump as much. I just finished typing up a whole thing I was going to post and came back here to do that. Next post....

 

[AmaxB]

I am no authority just been pouring over pros & cons for weeks now and agree with Jitterbug if I were to get a slider stock it would be a Bumpski. Something solid with options is better as opposed to plastic without options. Not to mention performance and life span.

I checked law where I plan on spending my last days and find a semi-auto to be illegal for hunting. So all around use is out the window. I've got hunting covered anyway but a new addition would have been nice.
Looking at defense alone I have come to believe two things are a must. The ability to reach out and close quarters. This leads to a minimum of two weapons with three being better Pistol, Rifle, & Shotgun. There are lots of flavors to meet the need of Pistol & Rifle that would be acceptable. Shotgun seems to fall on two types if considering the speed & number of shots. A pump type system or magazine / drum system to me this seems to be the selection to choose from. I can choose from any number of pumps even some Sci-Fi types with rotating ammo cylinders. But I still need to feed those cylinders and that can take minutes I may not have. So for me the second system is better (magazine / drum) for the sake of reload time. Granted odds are I may never be in a place where it matters. But if I am I want my ass covered. Not to mention that as stated in the beginning of this thread, a show of fire power can send the bad guys looking for easier pickings.

After looking at jam, cycling, and over all dependability with what is available putting beauty appeal to the side. I feel Vepr is the choice but now looking at the Vepr and trying to see through the marketing vial when bought and after sale upgrades to get a really functional Vepr without issue. Covering power, speed, and accuracy as far as a shotgun of this type goes. An $800 model can get you by but some upgrading will make it better. Not for eye appeal but for performance. $800 bucks is a tough pill to swallow and upgrades can add $400 plus. Making it even harder to swallow. Not to mention this is doing it yourself no cost of a gunsmith. If you can get passed the sticker shock it can be a fine choice. I have looked hard and really can't find anything like it in the same cost range not to mention the need of a stamp. If I were to buy one of these and not wanting to do some work myself but letting the factory do it the cost is about the same as if I did it myself. There is a dealer site that offers the Vepr in different package levels. If you have an interest see the links below the first is a lineup of the Vepr and Siaga packages offered. The second link is the Vepr package I like, there are still a couple things I would add but changes to move the Vepr up a few notches are pretty much covered in my opinion. From what I've seen the GK-02 is the best muzzle break... but you need to be careful a break can cause cycling issues due to pressure / gases loss.
.
https://www.legionusa.com/saiga-vepr-rifles-for-sale/saiga-12-for-sale.html
and the second link I'm liking this one.
https://www.legionusa.com/vepr-12-ipsc-legion-edition.html

 

[chuditch]

For my input AmaxB I think it looks a little over kill, if you pardon the expression or pun. If the idea is to dissuade the bad guys who are coming to rob you not start a fire fight just being armed should do it and a shotgun of the standard visual appearance might do the job a whole lot better. I just have a short barrelled side by side near the bed good for all critters from snakes up. I think the standard looking pump action shotgun would be the go for what you are talking about and probably a lot cheaper as well. Can get different barrel lengths and choke selections so good for hunting and can put anything down which ever barrel you have on at the time. large 00 buckshot, solids or birdshot.
I like the pump as can keep adding shells as you expend shells and the pump brings you back on target as you push the action forward. I mean the style worked well in the trenches in WW1 and in the jungles in WW2 so the style is a bit timeless and proven.
For hunting its allowed in your area and back to home defence a quick change of barrels and its in that mode.