yeah this burley 64 I grew this summer 18,an yes I fermented it until no more ammonia smell.
Just threw some in the Microwave an that made smoke able
Is there any way to mellow out shredded tobacco ?
- Thread starter JohnH
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Just threw some in the Microwave an that made smoke able
What does "fermented it" mean, at what temperature and for what duration?
Bob
Bob
The reason I ask, is because your description of the tobacco sounds simply like unfinished leaf. If the design and arrangement of the cooler kiln allowed the leaf itself to stay at your measured 125°F for 4 weeks (while in adequate case throughout that time), then I have no explanation.
Bob
Bob
How long is it to be fermented,I read there's two stages,the frist one is I think to remove the starches an Ammonia.which I guess turns to sugars.the second one is Aging.
From what I read in other places burley doesn't change with aging.
I mean dont know,this is my frist attempt at producing a smoke.i still have gold leaf out.pulled some of it.only had one Burley 64.plant, I let grow for seeds.pulled it a month an a half ago
From what I read in other places burley doesn't change with aging.
I mean dont know,this is my frist attempt at producing a smoke.i still have gold leaf out.pulled some of it.only had one Burley 64.plant, I let grow for seeds.pulled it a month an a half ago
ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
All tobacco improves with aging so long as it is not bone dry.
Well, "other places" are just plain incorrect.
With my own burley, only one variety of it was "smokable" by Thanksgiving, without kilning. But many burley varieties need about a year (unkilned) to be smokable. Even with the finest burley from BigBonner, I found that 1 year old leaf dramatically improved after kilning.
As green leaf color-cures to brown, carbohydrates and proteins are broken down my enzymatic processes. Chemical cleaving of amino groups from proteins is the primary source of the ammonia that is released. The majority of that is accomplished by the time the leaf is fully brown. The remainder just takes time.
With white-stem burleys in particular, the chemical conversions occur at about the same pace as with other tobaccos, but the leaf may become fully brown more rapidly. That means it doesn't cure fully, by the time it first turns brown.
My usual practice with burley now (for all varieties) is to allow it to color-cure for at least several months--often as much as a year, then kiln it for a month, then allow it to rest and outgas for at least another few weeks.
Bob
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Hugh
Well-Known Member
Reading this, decided to try last year's burley. I had shredded maybe 50g a couple months ago, so i'm all set.
Opening up the container, gave off a strong smell of ammonia --that's all good.
Rolled one half/half with Virginia --man, that is one smooth smoke I got right now.
No grassy taste at all. Hard to say what kind of nic-hit i got.
Got to say I'm pleased with this.
Opening up the container, gave off a strong smell of ammonia --that's all good.
Rolled one half/half with Virginia --man, that is one smooth smoke I got right now.
No grassy taste at all. Hard to say what kind of nic-hit i got.
Got to say I'm pleased with this.
CT Tobaccoman
Well-Known Member
Bob, kilnimg is basically just a way to sweat small batches, is that right?
CT Tobaccoman
Well-Known Member
Cigarette tobacco, though it doesn't necessarily need sweating, benefits greatly from some ageing at correct temp and low humidity, at least 6 months, to get that nice tobacco smell. The ammonia should dissapate
Ammonia is created within the leaf during oxidation of the leaf's proteins. If there is no oxidation, then there is no ammonia produced. The oxidation is not caused by microbes or air, but by two oxidase enzymes still present within the leaf after the lamina have died. Both require moisture to function in breaking down albuminous proteins and carbohydrates. One of the enzymes is destroyed if the leaf reaches 141°F, so is lacking in flue-cured leaf after it has been flue-cured. The more heat-stable enzyme survives and functions up to about 191°F. This second oxidase enzyme operates much more slowly than the first, but it is what permits flue-cured leaf to very slowly age. Once leaf has been heated above 191°F, it can no longer age. So toasted leaf and Cavendish or otherwise boiled or steamed leaf no longer has the ability to age in the sense that we understand tobacco aging.
"Sweating" is an imprecise term with many meanings. "Fermentation", likewise offers its own confusions. Both of them refer to conditions that allow the process of oxidation discussed in the previous paragraph. The leaf must have some moisture (is not completely dry), and must be at a temperature of about 60°F or higher. Since the oxidation reaction is temperature dependent, the higher the temp, the more rapidly the reaction runs (up to the point that the enzyme itself is cooked or denatured).
Cured leaf that is hanging in a humid shed or tobacco barn while temperatures rise (as in the springtime) will resume enzymatic oxidation. The rate of that oxidation tends to cycle with the ambient temperature. Once most of the proteins and carbs have been oxidized (incidentally releasing ammonia radicals from certain proteins), the rate slows dramatically, though it can continue for years at a snail's pace.
Cured leaf that is closely packed within bales or into piles (pilones) acts as its own insulation, so that the slight, chemical heat generated by the oxidation is trapped, increasing the oxidation rate and thereby generating even more heat. So baled or piled tobacco can warm itself (even to the point of starting a smoldering fire, if the conditions are just right). When this happens in bales, simply separating the individual bales with a slight air space will often be enough to slow or halt the process. When this occurs during intentional "fermentation" piles, the temperature is allowed to reach a previously decided max temp, at which the pile is broken down and reassembled, and the process started over again.
"Aging" of tobacco refers to exactly the same chemical process of oxidation. Once most of the work of oxidation has been completed, "aging" appears as a subtle, gradual process. But it's the very same thing happening (at a slower rate) as happens with "sweating" and "fermentation".
We often say things like "burley is not fermented," and "cigar leaf is always fermented." The only real difference is that most cigar varieties require a lot more oxidation to tame the proteins and carbohydrates, when compared to burley or other non-cigar varieties. "Fermenting" non-cigar varieties does not cause them to smell or taste like cigar varieties. Those distinct characteristics are inherent within the specific tobacco varieties.
Kilning
A kiln allows you to achieve the moisture and temperature conditions required for optimal oxidation rates. It's not dependent on bailing or creating 5000 pound piles, or waiting for the weather to be just right. The kiln enforces the humidity, and enforces the desired temperature. It's the same as "sweating" or "fermentation" or "aging". Once the leaf has mostly oxidized its proteins and carbohydrates, all that remains to be accomplished is a "resting" and "airing" period (days to weeks) in order to allow the newly created ammonia that is still dissolved within the moisture of the leaf lamina to dissipate into the air. Allowing the leaf to completely dry (go out of case) can speed this process of ammonia evaporation. The leaf, of course, needs to be brought back into low case prior to handling.
If kilned or "sweated" or "fermented" or "aged" tobacco has an ammonia smell, it means that additional oxidation has taken place.
Bob
"Sweating" is an imprecise term with many meanings. "Fermentation", likewise offers its own confusions. Both of them refer to conditions that allow the process of oxidation discussed in the previous paragraph. The leaf must have some moisture (is not completely dry), and must be at a temperature of about 60°F or higher. Since the oxidation reaction is temperature dependent, the higher the temp, the more rapidly the reaction runs (up to the point that the enzyme itself is cooked or denatured).
Cured leaf that is hanging in a humid shed or tobacco barn while temperatures rise (as in the springtime) will resume enzymatic oxidation. The rate of that oxidation tends to cycle with the ambient temperature. Once most of the proteins and carbs have been oxidized (incidentally releasing ammonia radicals from certain proteins), the rate slows dramatically, though it can continue for years at a snail's pace.
Cured leaf that is closely packed within bales or into piles (pilones) acts as its own insulation, so that the slight, chemical heat generated by the oxidation is trapped, increasing the oxidation rate and thereby generating even more heat. So baled or piled tobacco can warm itself (even to the point of starting a smoldering fire, if the conditions are just right). When this happens in bales, simply separating the individual bales with a slight air space will often be enough to slow or halt the process. When this occurs during intentional "fermentation" piles, the temperature is allowed to reach a previously decided max temp, at which the pile is broken down and reassembled, and the process started over again.
"Aging" of tobacco refers to exactly the same chemical process of oxidation. Once most of the work of oxidation has been completed, "aging" appears as a subtle, gradual process. But it's the very same thing happening (at a slower rate) as happens with "sweating" and "fermentation".
We often say things like "burley is not fermented," and "cigar leaf is always fermented." The only real difference is that most cigar varieties require a lot more oxidation to tame the proteins and carbohydrates, when compared to burley or other non-cigar varieties. "Fermenting" non-cigar varieties does not cause them to smell or taste like cigar varieties. Those distinct characteristics are inherent within the specific tobacco varieties.
Kilning
A kiln allows you to achieve the moisture and temperature conditions required for optimal oxidation rates. It's not dependent on bailing or creating 5000 pound piles, or waiting for the weather to be just right. The kiln enforces the humidity, and enforces the desired temperature. It's the same as "sweating" or "fermentation" or "aging". Once the leaf has mostly oxidized its proteins and carbohydrates, all that remains to be accomplished is a "resting" and "airing" period (days to weeks) in order to allow the newly created ammonia that is still dissolved within the moisture of the leaf lamina to dissipate into the air. Allowing the leaf to completely dry (go out of case) can speed this process of ammonia evaporation. The leaf, of course, needs to be brought back into low case prior to handling.
If kilned or "sweated" or "fermented" or "aged" tobacco has an ammonia smell, it means that additional oxidation has taken place.
Bob
CT Tobaccoman
Well-Known Member
very helpful Bob, thank you. I have heard the term winter swear among some Broadlesf old timers, by which they mean piling up the cured tobacco, still on the stalk, in a barn under plastic, relatively air tight, until they got around to stripping and sorting the leaves in the early spring. B leaf of course undergoes a lot more fermentation in factory warehouses so, I guess it is one from the olden days We even did a shorter version of that with shade on days damp enough to take the laths down, but then it became too dry to strip the lath to make hands.
skychaser
Well-Known Member
Excellent post Bob! That needs to be posted in a separate thread and should be a "must read" for every member.
skychaser
Well-Known Member
I have copied your post and will be sending to everyone who e-mails me in the future with a question on this topic. Along with the link to FTT.
I have often wondered why tobacco was packed into such insanely heavy bales that no one could lift them. Now I get it. lol
I have often wondered why tobacco was packed into such insanely heavy bales that no one could lift them. Now I get it. lol
The Orig Ralph
Member
if you're looking for a mild smoke, that will never develop an after taste or tongue burn, try WLT's Va lemon blended with their 1st priming - the 1st priming is supposed to be the first two layers of leaves at the bottom of the tobacco plant which means they get very little sunlight, are very thin and very low in nicotene. I've been blending the Va lemon / 1st priming 50/50 for a really nice light smoke. I went thru every "value blend" and most if not all use flavorings, casings etc that depending on the brand, after 6 weeks to 3 months of smoking them left a hellacious after taste that just got worse. I'd quit smoking one for a bit, switch to something else for awhile, and come back to the 1st one, only to have the orginal after taste return within 7-10 days. The Va Lemon / 1st Priming i've been smoking for a little over two years - just a real pleasant smoke. Let it age 12-24 months after shredding, and it just develops the slightest "sweetness" to the taste, ie no bitterness which makes it even a more pleasant smoke. If you want it lighter, just blend in more 1st priming. The 1st priming by itself, doesn't seem to have any flavor to it, but it does seem to accent the flavor in the Va Lemon
It's going to run more than the $12-$15 / lb value blends, you get about 12 ounces from a $18 1 lb bag of leaves, but to me it's worth it. I used to spend $45-50 for a 17 oz bag of G&H Kendal Gold, which is one of the few pre-processed tobaccos without any casing or flavorings, but it is nearly the nicotene strength of Malboro Reds - a pleasant smoke but over time, just too strong a smoke.
If you want to spice it up some, drop in a pinch of the Perique tobacco once in awhile - makes for a nice after dinner smoke with a brandy or scotch, but be careful, just a pinch of the good Perique will give one ounce of the Va Lemon / 1st Priming a good spicey taste - too much, and your eyes will bug out for a week - the perique is that strong.
fwiw
It's going to run more than the $12-$15 / lb value blends, you get about 12 ounces from a $18 1 lb bag of leaves, but to me it's worth it. I used to spend $45-50 for a 17 oz bag of G&H Kendal Gold, which is one of the few pre-processed tobaccos without any casing or flavorings, but it is nearly the nicotene strength of Malboro Reds - a pleasant smoke but over time, just too strong a smoke.
If you want to spice it up some, drop in a pinch of the Perique tobacco once in awhile - makes for a nice after dinner smoke with a brandy or scotch, but be careful, just a pinch of the good Perique will give one ounce of the Va Lemon / 1st Priming a good spicey taste - too much, and your eyes will bug out for a week - the perique is that strong.
fwiw
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