toscano cigars - what type of tobacco seed?

[SmokeStack]

D&R carries this tobacco that has Dark-fired tobacco cured by the perique method. Along with Gold Leaf and a little Latakia. It might tell you a little about perique cured dark fired. http://pipesandcigars.com/riaprpito40g.html

Thanks for the link Alabama. That information about curing Dark-Fired tobacco by the Perique process was the key that I was looking for!


I have a small press that I am going to use to ferment Dark-Fired tobacco by the Perique method. I think it takes about 9 months to cure regular Perique by this method. I don't think that I will let the Dark-Fired go for 9 months. I am looking at 3 to 6 months. The press that I have is small enough to put in my kiln. So I was thinking of fermenting the Dark-Fired tobacco at 125 degrees to speed up the process.


This will at least provide a filler for making my toscano cigars. I am not sure about the binder and wrapper. I believe that toscano cigars are 100% Dark-Fired tobacco - filler, wrapper, and binder. Maybe this is one reason why toscano cigars are so cheap? Toscano cigars may seem to be a little monochromatic, but they are enjoyable nonetheless.

 

[Jitterbugdude]

So I was thinking of fermenting the Dark-Fired tobacco at 125 degrees to speed up the process.

It will not speed up the Perique process, it will probably just change it. When you ferment things at a certain temperature there exists a certain ratio of bacteria, fungi and yeasts. Change that temperature and the ratio changes.

 

[SmokeStack]

It will not speed up the Perique process, it will probably just change it. When you ferment things at a certain temperature there exists a certain ratio of bacteria, fungi and yeasts. Change that temperature and the ratio changes.

I was uncertain about heating the tobacco during the Perique process. If that is the case then it would make sense to ferment my first batch at room temperature.

I am curious as how to pack the press. Should I stack with well-cased leaf? Do I need to spray a little water between layers?

 

[Jitterbugdude]

I made mine with well cased leaf. I sprayed a little water to ensure they were wet enough. I knew I had enough pressure in my press when the tobacco liquid began to ooze to the top.

 

[Knucklehead]

Yes, keep it wet. It is the juice that prevents mold. When you unpress it to turn the tobacco the juice gets absorbed back into the tobacco. I saw a video of a worker soaking hands with a water hose and then just gave it a couple shakes. Run through the Perique thread again for a refresher. Don and Larry are both making Perique and could offer some good pointers. I think Bob has done some research. There are pictures and videos somewhere. I'll look through and help you find them.

 

[DonH]

Thanks for the link Alabama. That information about curing Dark-Fired tobacco by the Perique process was the key that I was looking for!


I have a small press that I am going to use to ferment Dark-Fired tobacco by the Perique method. I think it takes about 9 months to cure regular Perique by this method. I don't think that I will let the Dark-Fired go for 9 months. I am looking at 3 to 6 months. The press that I have is small enough to put in my kiln. So I was thinking of fermenting the Dark-Fired tobacco at 125 degrees to speed up the process.


This will at least provide a filler for making my toscano cigars. I am not sure about the binder and wrapper. I believe that toscano cigars are 100% Dark-Fired tobacco - filler, wrapper, and binder. Maybe this is one reason why toscano cigars are so cheap? Toscano cigars may seem to be a little monochromatic, but they are enjoyable nonetheless.

I strongly doubt that Toscanos are made with 100% Fire Cured. The one I smoked did not taste at all like a puro Fire Cured would (which would taste like walking into a smoke house). I would be surprised if they have more than 20% Fire Cured in them.

Also, I don't think that the fermentation process is like the Perique one. I would guess that they don't ferment near as long as Perique does. Perique has that wine-like flavor that I don't see in Toscanos. I think that they get the tobacco moist and ferment for maybe a month or so, not a year like Perique. But that's just based on my tasting one.

 

[Matty]

I read about toscano cigars awhile back and found a lot of info online, I just don't remember it all, lol. However, I seem to remember that they are usually 100% kentucky, "italian" fire cured process (oak and beech?), a wrapper but no binder (or binder with no wrapper), now, the tobacco is indeed fermented, I kinda remember reading that the rolled cigars where fermented. I bought some of the DeNobli longs awhile back, opening the pack my first impression was "fire cured twig shaped cigar", I had no idea what to expect but have come to like them on occasion.

 

[SmokeStack]

I am going to begin fermenting two different tobaccos for making the filler for my homemade Toscano cigars. I ordered 2 small presses from seedman.com. In one press I will place Dark Air KY 171 LC. In the other press I will place fired-cured VA 309. I want to fill the press with tobacco leaf layer by layer with a misting of water in between. I have 2 questions for my FTT fellow members...

1. Should I mist the leaf with a dilute solution of yeast and/or sugar to assist the fermentation process? Or should I just stick with distilled water? I have read this procedure of using a yeast/sugar solution before, but I do not trust the source. It was from a book sold by seedman.com. They used this procedure in lieu kiln fermentation.
2. How long should I let the fermentation go. One month, two, three, etc. I guess I could sample some as time goes on, but I ask just in case someone should happen to know. I don't want to make Perique, but at the same time I would want that characteristic fermented flavor.

Kind of like how Virginias get a tangy flavor after an extended time. Marlin Flake is my favorite Virginia blend. I went into a tobacco shop and I noticed a tin of Marlin Flake covered in dust and hiding in the back of the shelf. I bought it and determined it was from 1995. I opened the can (15 years later) and smoked a bowl. What a difference! It was very tangy. I assume that this was the result of many years of fermentation while on the shelf. Note, the color of the tobacco was black and not brown as a fresh batch of tobacco.

I would greatly appreciate anyone's help with my project. The goal - a nice Toscano cigar!

 

[deluxestogie]

That approach sounds odd to me. Moistened leaf under light pressure (not the 35-60 psi of Perique), and held at room temperature may simply grow mold. I have read nowhere of using yeast to "ferment" tobacco.

Techniques of "fermenting" cigar leaf at ambient temperature involve a large enough bulk of tobacco to create its own insulation for trapping the self-generated heat of the exothermic oxidation process, thereby raising its own temperature (to 110-125ºF, depending on the desired degree of darkening). The internal temperature of the bulk is monitored. By rotating the bulk, each portion of the leaves within the bulk are self-heated, suppressing mold.

I suppose you could use synthetic insulation surrounding a small quantity of moistened leaf. Even then, the leaf would need periodic airing and rotation.

However you decide to try this, I'll be eager to read about your technique and results.

Bob

 

[Boboro]

I have kept leif under pressure for weeks with no mold. I dont know if any fermenting took place.

 

[SmokeStack]

Boboro, I am curious as to why you pressed your tobacco? Which leaf did you use?

 

[Boboro]

Before the power matic shredder I was lookin for a fast way to shred tobacco. I cut chunks off the block and fun them through a food proesser with the slicer blade. It didnt work well. Now I goin to try to ferment long term. Thats silk leif in the pic.

 

[SmokeStack]

Before the power matic shredder I was lookin for a fast way to shred tobacco.

I just got the Powermatic Shredder 3 days ago. It is so much faster than the hand-crank thing I was using before. I hesitated to buy one because of the cost, but I am sure glad that I did. It shreds tobacco leaf in no time. And I am very happy with the cut.

 

[DonH]

I just got the Powermatic Shredder 3 days ago. It is so much faster than the hand-crank thing I was using before. I hesitated to buy one because of the cost, but I am sure glad that I did. It shreds tobacco leaf in no time. And I am very happy with the cut.

I find that pressing and cutting with a knife works best to pipe tobacco. I use the Powermatic for cigarettes.

 

[SmokeStack]

I find that pressing and cutting with a knife works best to pipe tobacco. I use the Powermatic for cigarettes.

For cigarettes, I use my new Powermatic shredder. But for pipe tobacco, I like my old hand-crank shredder since it makes the ribbon width to the size I like. With the hand-crank shredder the ribbon width is perfect but it makes long strands. The tobacco is usually moist enough where I can roll or squeeze it into a cylindrical shape. Then I use titanium scissors and cut the tobacco into medallion-like pieces which I rub out before making cigarettes. Now, if I can only roll a decent cigar.

 

[Knucklehead]

Now, if I can only roll a decent cigar.

We want pictures.

 

[driftinmark]

hiya smokestack,
I found an article that might help a lil bit....from what i gather , it uses a starter like yogurt, to aid in fermentation, from previous batches of tobacco...I could be mistaken though....but its an interesting article anyway....enjoy! is it possible that some of this tobacco was brought from italy to start di nobili cigars also?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1800767/

 

[DonH]

Great article. Mystery solved. Sounds like it would be hard to do at home, though.

 

[driftinmark]

more on toscanos...

http://www.tuscanyblog.net/2011/03/legend-of-tuscan-cigar.html

 

[driftinmark]

from what i took from the article Don, it could be done at home, if you have a chemistry degree, lol....whats weird is looked up cheese making because some of the microbes listed are from cheese....could it be possible that the "accident" of this fermentation could have been from a cheese making shop down the street in florence italy?

http://www.arttrav.com/tuscany/cheese-making-in-pienza/