problems with fermentation

[Red Lime]

Hello everyone,

I need your help, but first let me summarize what has happened so far. My tobacco has been hanging in the air to dry since September. The humidity was too dry during the color change, so many leaves remained green or have green spots. All the leaves are bone dry at the moment and will break just by touching them. I started fermenting 2 weeks ago. I soaked the leaves in distilled water and this made them soft and supple again. I placed the wet leaves in an old freezer, one on top of the other, hoping that fermentation would start and I could capture the heat of fermentation in the freezer. Only the whole thing doesn't work, the leaves smell clearly putrid. So I have putrefaction instead of fermentation. I have a lot of dry leaves left to ferment. How should I improve fermenting? Does it help if I heat the freezer? Or is stacking the sheets already a mistake? Were the leaves too wet? Should I have weighed down the leaves so that they are pressed together a little? Can I still use them or should I throw them all away? I am really grateful for your help!

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

Spontaneous fermentation only works with huge piles of leaf and the leaf isn't as wet as yours.

There are a number of threads about how to build and use a kiln in the section of the forum titled Key Forum Threads.

Leaf should be moderately moist, but not wet. Temperature should be above 120°F to prevent mold.

 

[Red Lime]

Thanks for your reply, the thing is I have absolutely no time to look into building a new furnace right now, so I have one more question to ask. If I put a heating element in the freezer and heat the interior to 120F, will the fermentation work? Is the stacking of the sheets generally good, or rather negative?

 

[prtcledan]

Hello everyone,

I need your help, but first let me summarize what has happened so far. My tobacco has been hanging in the air to dry since September. The humidity was too dry during the color change, so many leaves remained green or have green spots. All the leaves are bone dry at the moment and will break just by touching them. I started fermenting 2 weeks ago. I soaked the leaves in distilled water and this made them soft and supple again. I placed the wet leaves in an old freezer, one on top of the other, hoping that fermentation would start and I could capture the heat of fermentation in the freezer. Only the whole thing doesn't work, the leaves smell clearly putrid. So I have putrefaction instead of fermentation. I have a lot of dry leaves left to ferment. How should I improve fermenting? Does it help if I heat the freezer? Or is stacking the sheets already a mistake? Were the leaves too wet? Should I have weighed down the leaves so that they are pressed together a little? Can I still use them or should I throw them all away? I am really grateful for your help!

I have just built my own kiln & am dying to try to ferment some tobacco. I grew a few Havana 608 & Connecticut broadleaf, cured all the leaves so perfectly& then bagged it awaiting that kiln completion day. Well the kiln is finished but I can’t find the tobacco. I’ve looked high & low. I’m so upset. Having trouble sleeping over this.
I’d love to ferment some for you but I see you’re from Austria. Don’t know how that would work out as far as mail…. Danny

 

[Knucklehead]

Thanks for your reply, the thing is I have absolutely no time to look into building a new furnace right now, so I have one more question to ask. If I put a heating element in the freezer and heat the interior to 120F, will the fermentation work? Is the stacking of the sheets generally good, or rather negative?

Yes. You will need to control the temperature. Try to maintain between 120-125F. Below 120F you can get mold. Too much heat will kill the enzymes that control aging. The freezer is good insulation. Seal the leaf in a container to prevent drying out but not soggy wet. A cheap temperture controller with a probe will turn the power to the heat on and off and maintain the correct temperature.
We maintain our kiln for about two months.

 

[prtcledan]

Yes. You will need to control the temperature. Try to maintain between 120-125F. Below 120F you can get mold. Too much heat will kill the enzymes that control aging. The freezer is good insulation. Seal the leaf in a container to prevent drying out but not soggy wet. A cheap temperture controller with a probe will turn the power to the heat on and off and maintain the correct temperature.
We maintain our kiln for about two months.

Reading this, there’s a problem for me… achieving 122 & higher is not currently possible for me with my kiln. It only goes to 113. I’ve read that it’s an excellent temp for fermentation. But reading about the mold now …. As I’ve never tried fermenting yet, in the stage of beginning , seems Iike im in for a battle. Or reach the higher temp. Hmmm

 

[Knucklehead]

Reading this, there’s a problem for me… achieving 122 & higher is not currently possible for me with my kiln. It only goes to 113. I’ve read that it’s an excellent temp for fermentation. But reading about the mold now …. As I’ve never tried fermenting yet, in the stage of beginning , seems Iike im in for a battle. Or reach the higher temp. Hmmm

I use a crock pot that supplies both heat and humidity. It needs to have a manual dial rather than a digital dial because the temp. controller just turns the power on and off at specified temp. settings. The digital ones generally speaking do not start back up when the power is turned back on by the controller. Does your kiln have sufficient insulation? Also, depending on the insulation and size, an incandescent light bulb can produce quite amount of heat but it needs to be shielded so it doesn't burn the leaf or walls. Adding a bulb may increase the temp in your box.

 

[deluxestogie]

Achieving the desired temperature requires adequate insulation of the kiln, as well as a good seal. If those requirements are met, then the wattage of the heat source only determines how long a time is required to reach the desired temperature.

• container
• insulation
• seal
• heat source

Bob

 

[prtcledan]

I use a crock pot that supplies both heat and humidity. It needs to have a manual dial rather than a digital dial because the temp. controller just turns the power on and off at specified temp. settings. The digital ones generally speaking do not start back up when the power is turned back on by the controller. Does your kiln have sufficient insulation? Also, depending on the insulation and size, an incandescent light bulb can produce quite amount of heat but it needs to be shielded so it doesn't burn the leaf or walls. Adding a bulb may increase the temp in your box.

The kiln I’ve made is exact copy of this kiln…

How to build your own Wooden Kiln at Home. by seed man.com​

I think the heating pad needs to be hotter.

 

[deluxestogie]

There is only a brief mention of insulation:

Free Plans for building your own Wooden Tobacco Curing Kiln

Free Plans for Building A Portable Tobacco Curing Kiln for Home Gardeners

www.seedman.com

If your kiln is not insulated, then add 1" or 2" thick insulation to all six sides. My preference is for XPS foam board (extruded polystyrene) for insulation. The wattage requirement is merely dependent on the efficiency of the insulation and the closure seal.

You might want to have a look in our Index of Key Forum Threads for several kiln building threads, just to see what the insulation looks like installed.

Bob

 

[Red Lime]

Thanks, I'll keep you updated.

 

[Red Lime]

Ok I installed a heater with a thermostat and set it to 120F, hope it works. Later I would like to install a temperature sensor that measures the temperature in the leaf pile and also connect this sensor to a thermostat. Do you think that's how it works?

 

[Red Lime]

 

[ChinaVoodoo]

Ok I installed a heater with a thermostat and set it to 120F, hope it works. Later I would like to install a temperature sensor that measures the temperature in the leaf pile and also connect this sensor to a thermostat. Do you think that's how it works?

You will get bigger swings in temperature if you put the probe in the tobacco because the probe will stay warm longer and take longer to warm up.

 

[Red Lime]

Is pressure on the tobacco leaves necessary with this type of fermentation, or do I not need to consider this factor at all?

 

[prtcledan]

I have just built my own kiln & am dying to try to ferment some tobacco. I grew a few Havana 608 & Connecticut broadleaf, cured all the leaves so perfectly& then bagged it awaiting that kiln completion day. Well the kiln is finished but I can’t find the tobacco. I’ve looked high & low. I’m so upset. Having trouble sleeping over this.
I’d love to ferment some for you but I see you’re from Austria. Don’t know how that would work out as far as mail…. Danny

Well, I have finally reached the 122 Degrees in my kiln & can easily go higher. It was because I didn’t have enough heat. I doubled up on the heating pads. Now, looking for some unfermented tobacco. Yahoo. Next step!

 

[Knucklehead]

Is pressure on the tobacco leaves necessary with this type of fermentation, or do I not need to consider this factor at all?

No pressure needed. I tie mine in hands and just suspend the hands from racks. Supplied heat and moisture only is needed.

In pilon fermenting, moisture and pressure begin the composting process and the tobacco in the center goes through a "heat". The temperature is monitored and the pile is broken down and reshuffled, outside to inside, until the whole pile has gone through a heat. When we used to stack hay bales in the barn we had to make sure the hay was dry and not green or the temps inside could rise to the point that the inside of the stack could spontaneously combust and burn down the hay and barn. Same process is carefully applied to tobacco fermentation in pilons. I think they keep breaking down the pile at 120F. Monitoring is critical.

Spontaneous combustion a possibility with wet hay - Oklahoma State University

Excessive moisture is actually the most common cause of fire in hay bales and stacks.

news.okstate.edu

 

[Red Lime]

Thank you for your detailed answer and the link.

 

[Red Lime]

I measure a temperature difference of 5.4F between the top and bottom of the chest (volume of 255 liters). At the bottom I measure 113F and at the top I measure 118.4F. There is only a 70-80cm (27.5-31.5 inch) difference in height between the bottom of the floor and the top of the thermostat. Does it really exist? That seems a bit much to me!

 

[Knucklehead]

I measure a temperature difference of 5.4F between the top and bottom of the chest (volume of 255 liters). At the bottom I measure 113F and at the top I measure 118.4F. There is only a 70-80cm (27.5-31.5 inch) difference in height between the bottom of the floor and the top of the thermostat. Does it really exist? That seems a bit much to me!

A fan will even out the temp. throughout the kiln. I use a bathroom exhaust fan (poop fan) because they are rated for moist environments. Mine just blows up the side and circulates around. (mounted on the left in the photo) It doesn't have to be fancy.



More photos here:

Knuckleheads Wooden Box Kiln Build

I've been meaning to build a kiln for the past two seasons but have just gotten off my sorry ass and decided to do something about it. (Bob's thread kicked off my thinking seriously about it) First, let me say that the cheapest kiln build is one from a free freezer, as the box itself is the most...

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