deluxestogie Grow Log 2012

[deluxestogie]

Can I just top those plants, you-know, clip-off the stem and mangled leaves and let one or 2 good suckers replace the main growing stem and still get some decent tip (ootz) leaves?

I'm afraid I don't know the answer to that. You'll just have to give it a try, and see.

Bob

 

[Tom_in_TN]

OK, heck can't hurt anything. At this point there are still plenty with good tip leaves and would be a good comparison.

 

[SmokeStack]

Bob,

Since you are the expert on Orientals, of the many varieties you have grown, which ones would you say were the most flavorful or aromatic? I have limited experience smoking Orientals since they are very difficult or impossible to come by. From my pipe smoking experience, Yenidje is my favorite - it has a pronounced and distinguished aroma. Some Orientals have a floral aroma whereas others have a leathery or musty aroma. Some are very mild whereas others have aromas that are much more pronounced. Have you observed this variance in your findings?

 

[deluxestogie]

My sense is that the varieties with petiolate leaves (Trabzon, Samsun, Bursa, Bafra, [Tasoua], Samsun Maden) tend to have greater strength (in descending order), while the Basma type varieties, with sessile leaves (Bitlis, Smyrna, Izmir, Xanthi, etc.) are milder (in order of increasing mildness). Within each group, some are floral (e.g. Bursa) and some possess a less floral aromatic character (Izmir, Xanthi). I have a few uncommon ones growing this year, that I have yet to taste.

For all of them, greater fertilizations makes them larger and stronger. Topping makes them stronger. Wider spacing makes them stronger. This is also affected by curing conditions in ways that I don't understand.

One general observation is that the more rank the appearance of the leaf, the stronger it will be. Those that seems to mature to a thin, smooth leaf are milder.

There is so little current information on the questions that you raise that I believe it will be several years before all of us are able to compile a valid picture. My Mutki is growing truly huge, though thin and smooth leaves. I really have no idea what it will smell or taste like.

Bob

 

[Whalen]

@deluxestogie - Thank you for that! Very informative.

 

[SmokeStack]

My sense is that the varieties with petiolate leaves (Trabzon, Samsun, Bursa, Bafra, [Tasoua], Samsun Maden) tend to have greater strength (in descending order), while the Basma type varieties, with sessile leaves (Bitlis, Smyrna, Izmir, Xanthi, etc.) are milder (in order of increasing mildness). Within each group, some are floral (e.g. Bursa) and some possess a less floral aromatic character (Izmir, Xanthi).

Bob

Where does Yenidje belong in your lists - under Xanthi? If I am not mistaken, there are few Xanthi varieties. Does Yenidje have petiolate or sessile leaves? Also, I am curious to know how you would characterize the aroma of Yenidje. To me, it has more of a musty aroma than floral. I am just wondering what is your interpretation of floral. To me, floral is something like a rose would smell like - kind of perfume-like. Yenidje has a very different aroma.

 

[leverhead]

I'll second Whalen's thank you! Great stuff!

 

[deluxestogie]

The town of Yenidje (sometimes spelled Yenice on current maps), Greece, is located in a somewhat swampy river valley, not far from the Aegean Sea. That was the original source of the famed Yenidje leaf. At the time, it was part of the Ottoman Empire. In the mid 1800s, the entire town burned to the ground. The tobacco growers of Yenidje moved further up-river to the drier slopes below the town of Xanthi, in the foothills of the Rhodope Mountains. So, for the last 150 years or so, "Yenidje" tobacco has been grown on the slopes below Xanthi. That area is historically part of ancient Macedonia, so the leaf is sometimes called Macedonian Yenidje. The town of Yenidje was rebuilt, and currently produces lower grade tobacco that is similar to that grown in Kavala, and is not usually considered "Yenidje" leaf.

Tobacco is also grown on the steeper slopes above Xanthi. This has a different character. The "Yenidje," grown on the lower slopes is also known as Xanthi Yaka; that grown on the upper slopes is known as Xanthi Djebel. (So far as I can figure out, Yaka means something like foothills, and Djebel means steeper slopes.)

I'm not able to describe the aroma of Yenidje, though I would propose that it's something between a mild perfume and a mild leather. It is distinctive, and can be recognized when present is small amounts. The leaf is a small Basma type, with a sessile attachment to the stalk.

Xanthi Yaka 18A leaf sessile attachment. The size shown is probably close to the maximum leaf size achievable with wide spacing and ample watering.

With Xanthi Yaka (which I usually refer to as simply "Xanthi") the goal should not be maximum size and yield, but quality, which seems to require closer spacing.

Bob

 

[Tom_in_TN]

Very valuable info, Bob. You've posted these details before about spacing the Xanthi plants. Mine are spaced 16" apart planted in sets of 4 rows. The interior plants are not quite keeping pace with the ones in the outside rows, less exposure to the sun I suppose. Most of the plants started blooming over a week ago and I bagged the best one at close to 5' tall. No chemical fetilization, just organic. The leaves appear bight green, not too dark.

Looking at your leaf photos compared to the ones I planted they have taken on that corrugated sort of crinkly look, so the size looks about right for the middle leaves on my plants. So, they may not grow larger than those you depicted but could start to get a darker green, like yours and become even more 'crinkly'.

None have been 'topped', I am suckering but allowing the bloom-head to form. Since I am trying to get a milder aromatic leaf, not too strong in aromatics, for my pipe tobacco, would you suggest harvesting now, wait for the leaves to 'crinkle' or try for something in between that sort of maturity?

Disregard the blowdowns in the background, we got hit by another storm the day before this pic was made.

 

[Chicken]

is that XANTHI a filler type baccy,???

 

[deluxestogie]

Chicken,
Xanthi is a Turkish type.

Tom,
I have waited for full maturity to harvest, but prior to the "ripe" stage.

I was asked in a PM about the details of Sacred Cornplanter (ARS-GRIN accession number, etc.) The Mt. Pima, Papante and Sacred Cornplanter do not exist in the ARS-GRIN, so far as I can determine. All that I have is from the book by JC Winter. Here are my notes.

http://books.google.com/books?id=UGI4hxx6mTQC
jwinter@unm.edu


"The Akimel O'odham (Pima) of southern Arizona grew both of the domesticated species (N. tabacum and N. rustica) and gathered and sometimes grew three wild taxa (N. attenuata, N. trigonophylla, and N. quardivalvis).
...neighboring Tohono O'odham (Papago) grew the two domesticated species and gathered ...(N. attenuata and N. trigonophylla). The seeds of all four of these species have been reported from prehistoric Hohokam (ancestral Pima) sites in the same region.... N. tabacum and N. rustica and several of the wild species are still used by Native Americans in northern Mexico, so it is clear that the general region was and is a major center of tobacco cultivation and diversity of considerable antiquity. Indeed, it is possible that the diverse species utilized, with their long archaeological record, represent one of the oldest tobacco-growing and tobacco-gathering complexes on the continent, with roots that reach back to well before the arrival of cultivated food plants in the region."

"The Pima Bajo of Sonora, for example, raise N. tabacum and collect N. trigonophylla and N. glauca when the domesticated tobacco is not available in stores or gardens. N. tabacum seeds are sown in small beds or broken ollas, and the seedlings are moved to irrigated plots near the river when the plants are about 20 centimeters (8 inches) high. The Tarahumara in the Sierra Madres of northwest Mexico also raise N. tabacum and N. rustica, and they collect N. glauca and N. trigonophylla. The nearby Warijio (Guarijio) raise both domesticated species, as do the Huichol in the mountains to the south."

"The Tarahumara call all of these tobacco species wipaka, whereas the local mestizos call N. tabacum 'papanti,' N. trigonophylla 'tabaco de coyote' or 'macuchi de coyote,' and N. glauca 'corneton'. ...other Tarahumara names for tobacco are wiuraka and makuchi (N. rustica) and wipanto (N. tabacum)."


[CORNPLANTER]
http://books.google.com/books?id=UGI4hxx6mTQC&pg=PA17&source=gbs_toc_r&cad=4#v=onepage&q&f=false

Tobacco's role in the Haudenosaunee [Iroquois] culture and its value to the families that carry the culture from generation to generation was brought home to me by an Allegany Seneca family descended from Chief Cornplanter, who led the Seneca against the American rebels in the Revolutionary War. In 1994, I visited a number of university herbaria, where I obtained N. rustica seeds that had been grown from seeds that one of the Cornplanter chiefs had provided in 1915. I was able to grow new plants and then in 1995 to give both the family and the Seneca Tribal Museum in Salamanca New York new seeds, which they now use to produce the sacred tobacco that is so necessary fro their ceremonies.

[Image caption] Cornplanter's tobacco, Nicotiana rustica, grown in 1995 from seeds produced in 1921, which in turn were grown from seeds provided by Seneca Chief Cornplanter in 1915. Height of plant 1.229 m. Photo by Joseph Winter.

Bob

 

[driftinmark]

this is so cool, I was wondering if that cornplanter got its name from chief cornplanter......I have visited the site where he was born, cornplanter , red jacket and handsome lake....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cornplanter

interesting fellow for sure......I dabble a bit in local history, lol

 

[deluxestogie]

My "Cigar Wrapper (DOM)" Pi552617

Now that I've grown this variety (seed from ARS-GRIN), I have finally determined what variety I have. Despite requesting assistance from INTABAC in the Dominican Republic (once in English; once in Spanish, accompanied by measurements and photos), the slugs never replied. Today, I performed yet another Google search, and turned up a definitive video of the D'Angelo Plantation (Dominican Republic) that shows 4 Dominican varieties.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UFpqMPw9JQ&feature=relmfu

Although the narration is in Spanish, and a 5 year old nephew is prattling in the background, I can clearly understand the varieties that are identified. I obtained the photos below by pausing the grainy video and capturing a .jpg image using SnagIt. They're blurry. I've cleaned them up as much as I can.

Below are photos of my "Dominican:"

San Vicente appears to have a wavy leaf margin. Piloto Cubano resembles the broad lower leaf typical of Cuban varieties. The Sumatra Dominicano appears similar to my sun-grown CT Shade.

From the choices here, Dominican Olor looks like the plants I'm growing. So...ARS-GRIN was incorrect in labeling it "Wrapper" and in classifying it as WRAPPER type. (It doesn't even look like a wrapper type.) Olor is the primary source of Dominican Seco and Dominican Ligero (lower and upper leaves, respectively).

There you have it. Olor it is.

Any comments on my photo interpretations are welcome.

Bob

 

[Tom_in_TN]

Good Lord, Bob that is some fantastic research. Impressive.

Yep, the Dominican Olor in the vid pics you captured are remarkably good (for a you tube video) and it looks like you nailed it. Real nice plantation. Playing the video shows the leaf much better of course. I vaguely remember some of the former sites I posted at talking about the D'Angelo Plantation and it is good there are some videos still around.

 

[deluxestogie]

I saw something ugly beneath a leaf of Harrow Velvet burley.

Here's a closeup:

Since the blustery wind was blowing hard from the southwest, something that big had to be from Texas.

Bob

 

[Tom_in_TN]

Yep, they flew through Baccyville last week and must have been headed your way. Wonder if BarG is behind this?

 

[SmokesAhoy]

Hahaha.
I miss cicadas. Taking an afternoon nap lulled to sleep by cicadas is a sure sign you're living the good life.

 

[leverhead]

They leave the empty beetle shells everywhere around here, there not endangered in any way.

 

[deluxestogie]

Planning for 2013

It's time to consider selecting and acquiring seed for 2013.

I plan a minimal crop rotation. I grow tobacco for 2 years in the same beds, then rotate to vegetables for the next year. Since I fertilize with composted manure, my major reason for rotation is to minimize the tobacco pest burden within the soil. Three years away from tobacco is ideal, but I don't have the space to do that. One year away is still significant.

I had hoped to plant no more than 16 varieties in 2013, down from 39 (43 attempted) in 2012. So 19 isn't too bad. This includes 15 repeats, and 4 FTT grow-outs of new varieties.

My repeats for 2013:

• Catterton [My one Maryland]
• CT Shade
• Dominican Olor
• FL Sumatra
• Harrow Velvet [A handsome, stand-up burley]
• Havana 38 [More productive than Havana 263, similar to Comstock Spanish]
• Jalapa [Nicaraguan Filler]
• Little Dutch
• Machu Picchu [Peruvian Wrapper]
• Mutki [Large-leafed semi-Oriental]
• PA Red
• Samsun Maden
• VA Bright
• WI 901 [Very productive and hardy broadleaf]
• Xanthi Yaka 18a

FTT Grow-outs of new varieties:

• Córdoba [Mexican wrapper from the San Andres Valley. ARS-GRIN accession in 1935.]
• Criollo Salteño [Poorly characterized Argentina variety. ARS-GRIN accession in 1937.]
• Hoja Parado ["Standing Leaf," from Argentina. ARS-GRIN accession in 1936.]
• Lattaquie 92 [From France, 1983. One of many selected plants thought by French sources in the Levant to be a source of Latakia.]

2013 Garden Layout

Most of the deeply dug beds allow 3.75 sq. ft. per plant, in staggered rows. The 3 Turkish varieties will be planted at higher densities, since that appears to yield a higher quality, though smaller, leaf.

Bob

 

[BarG]

I saw something ugly beneath a leaf of Harrow Velvet burley.

Here's a closeup:

Since the blustery wind was blowing hard from the southwest, something that big had to be from Texas.

Bob

Bob, I've called them locusts since I was a tot. They probably did blow in from here. My cat has a field day with them. I found them hanging on my baccy on several occasions.

Thats still an ambitious grow plan for 2013, I wish I was as organized to plan that far in advance.

On a side note I have a question about the Nicaraguan tobaccos. [Your Jalapa] Did some of their varietys originate in cuba? I saw a special that I recorded from modern marvels on tobacco,[Haven't watched fully] that implied several major tobacco growers left cuba to start growing in similar soils and conditions, one of those areas was nicaragua.