deluxestogie Grow Log 2012

[johnlee1933]

Well, the Gods are plotting against me again. About a month ago I stopped being able to download pictures from my camera so I've been taking the sim card out and putting it in a sim card reader and downloading pictures that way. Tonight I was going to load some pics of MCY, TN90 etc and now my computer tells me the device is not recognized. I'll just have to post the info I have and maybe update next week when I figure the picture thing out, or do a suitable offering of burnt tobacco to the Gods that I have evidently pissed off.

Blasphemer Randy

Hey Dude, when you get it figured out let me know. I am at the first half of your problem. My camera (Cannon S5 IS) stopped downloading with the cable some time back. I am loading from the SIM chip just as you were. If the next step happens to me I'd like to be able to ask your help.

John

 

[deluxestogie]

The Straight Poop on Hornworm Poop (in 2,006 words)

Bob

 

[Tom_in_TN]

Bob, we always referred to any insect 'poop' as 'frass' here in Baccyville. Don't know how that terminology became accepted but I suppose either adjective works and which-ever term you care to use it spells 'trouble' for our plants.

Also, I got some of the 'Mont Calme Yellow' seed from BarG and my plants look exactly like the one you posted above.

 

[deluxestogie]

From JBD's comparisons, it's looking as though BarG's MCX is actually Mont Calme Brune. Maybe. I'm waiting for comparison photos, before I decide.

In the hornworm poop photos, I was unable to locate the hornworm on that plant. I found it though (1/4" thick x 1-1/2" long) on the adjacent plant. It had crossed over to a touching leaf. By the time I thought of photographing the poop, the hornworm was unfortunately in dispose.

Another item of interest is my "Dominican Wrapper." I was reading last night that until 1991, no wrapper was grown in the DR. They only grew Olor, for use as a mild filler. All their wrapper leaf for making Dominican cigars was imported. In that year, 1991, Piloto Cubano (basically just "Cuban Seed") was introduced into the DR for wrapper. Piloto Cubano is now the only locally grown wrapper in the DR, and is used as a wrapper on all of the premium Dominican puros. My "Dominican Wrapper" came from ARS-GRIN (PI 552617), named as "Wrapper (DOM REP)," and was donated to ARS-GRIN by NCSU (which is the location of the tobacco seed bank??), in 1991. So, I suspect that what I'm growing is premium Piloto Cubano Dominican wrapper.

My plan is to send a collection of photographs to Intabaco, the Dominican governmental equivalent to the US ARS (agricultural research service) for tobacco, and see if they can tell me if I'm growing Olor, Piloto Cubano or something else entirely. Just naming it as "Dominican Wrapper" is like saying "American Wrapper."

Bob

 

[Tom_in_TN]

Mont Calme Brune would be a good outcome, in my opinion. I think others might want to grow this variety because it is a very nice plant.

I share your concern about the hornworms being difficult to locate. They are sneaky bastards for sure. They are eating a few of the Izmir Ozbas leaves (5 or 6 plants) but the Xanthi Yaka leaves have not been impacted, so far.

Piloto Cubano wrapper: I was never a fan of DR cigars or the H2000 Havana wrapper. So, it will be interesting to see your results on what Intabaco might, or might not say, about the Piloto Cubano Dominican wrapper.

Overall, the Izmir Ozbas and Xanthi Yaka I planted are doing well despite having been blown down twice in the past week or so. I need to buy some smaller gauge wire to string their leaves because the 17 gauge wire I have is too large, although it is guess work as to when to prime the leaves because they appear to be so succulent. Seeds were germinated on 04/19 and planted on 06/24 & 25th, about 2 weeks later than desired. I expect blooms to appear by 08/04. I will bag a few plants but let the entire patch bloom at will in order to collect spent blossoms and allow the tip leaves to develop. I was in the lower garden today and was thinking that if Izmir Ozbas is not the King of Suckers then it is surely the Queen of Suckers.

 

[Chicken]

as i stated before, if you are intrested, in cigar baccy's,

this is the grow log to watch.

deluxestogie, goes to the extremes, in documenting everything,

 

[BarG]

From JBD's comparisons, it's looking as though BarG's MCX is actually Mont Calme Brune. Maybe. I'm waiting for comparison photos, before I decide.

Bob

Wise decison Bob, Trust your own judgement.
Although I trust both your judgements on this plant, I think you two are The best for decididing the final decree.

 

[deluxestogie]

I'm in mid-harvest now. Since I leave all the tips (4 per plant) to fully ripen, many of the varieties look like tall windmills (with one Casper, the friendly ghost, hovering above each variety). During the spate of blowdowns, I ended up hanging 8 whole stalks, many of which have nearly cured. So I decided to stalk harvest the Little Yellow, Harrow Velvet, Lancaster, WI Seedleaf (what's left), and the two Marylands (Catterton and Keller).

I'm so conditioned to priming leaf at maturity, rather than at the later "ripe" stage, that deciding when a whole plant is at an optimum stage still feels uncertain. The Harrow Velvet (a white-stem burley variety) seems the easiest. The bottom leaves, shown below, are fully ripe, while the top leaves are definitely mature.

Note the creamy stalk and the white central veins.

My late plantings of Golden Burley will also be stalk harvested, when the time comes. Although hanging the whole stalk requires more height in the hanging area, it appears to utilize considerably less square footage in the shed. Also, once it wilts fully, they can be moved closer together. Between feeding leaf into my Cozy Can flue-curing chamber as well as moving color-cured leaf into my kiln, I'm hoping the clear enough shed space for the whole crop. That's still iffy.

Concerning my crossing experiment with Sacred Cornplanter, Mt. Pima and Papante, the results are becoming pretty clear. Mt. Pima and Papante easily pollinate each other, as well as Little Dutch, forming fat seed pods. In the opposite direction, Little Dutch easily pollinates Mt. Pima and Papante. Cornplanter (known rustica) is not pollinated by any of the other three, and has failed to pollinate any of the other three, indicated by aborted seed pods. Mercifully, there were no marginally pollinated pods with any of the crosses. Given the morphology, discussed earlier in the thread, and the crossing results, I can say with confidence...

Conclusion: Mt. Pima and Papante are Nicotiana tabacum. Since the blossoms of Papante are a noticeably deeper pink than those of Mt. Pima, despite the nearly identical appearance of the plants, Mt. Pima and Papante are distinctly different varieties.

Since the discussion of species assignment of Mt. Pima and Papante first arose on the HTGT forum, I'll be posting these results there as well.

Bob

 

[SmokeStack]

Great work Bob! I am glad to see that your experiment has come to fruition. As a scientist, I greatly appreciate your work. It is an invaluable asset to the forum.

The only question that now remains is under which category do Mt. Pima and Papante fall - Burley, Flue Cured, Cigar, etc? (Sorry, not trying to complicate things!)

Marco

 

[deluxestogie]

Marco,
Since I have yet to harvest either Mt. Pima or Papante, it will be a while before I have air-cured and kilned leaf samples to evaluate. Since USDA and ARS-GRIN don't know anything about Mt. Pima and Papante, it's really up to us to draw a conclusion about their class assignment. They are definitely not a burley, and are far too narrow to be handy for a cigar wrapper or binder. They bear no physical resemblance to any flue-cure varieties, and I would expect them to be quite dark if flue-cured. All of the Dark-Air and Dark-Fire varieties that I've seen sport much larger leaf size, and more pubescent and sticky leaves.

My initial take is that the designation would be either "Primitive" or "Cigar Filler" for one or both of them. If they kiln-out to a nice cigar blender, then I would go with "Cigar Filler." If it's too potent for that, then I would consider it a "Primitive" Nicotiana tabacum--that is, a variety of N. tabacum which has undergone minimal selective agricultural development. (Maybe the Indians of mountainous NW Mexico and southern Arizona carefully developed one or both of them to be just the way they are.)

Bob

EDIT: ADDENDUM added 25 August 2015 (so, 3 years later). I've aged, kilned and cajoled Mt. Pima and Papante. They just remain potent and stubborn. In tiny proportions, they blend well in a cigar, but so will just about anything. CONCLUSION: both Mt. Pima and Papante should be classed as "Primitive."

 

[SmokeStack]

This leads me to wonder how tobaccos (N. tabacum) are classified (such as Burley, Virginias, Maryland, Dark Air, Cigar Filler, etc.) in the first place. What criteria is used for classifying tobaccos? Are there genetic factors that can be used to distinguish tobacco? I'm not a biologist, but I wonder if there is some sort of DNA analysis that can be used?

If am correct about the following, some things we already know are: Burleys are high in albumin and nicotine, Flue-Cured are high in starch, Orientals tend to have small leaves with less nicotine, etc. I guess one problem is that many varietals have been cross-bred. But finding a systematic methodology for classifying tobacco would make for a great research project. If you have any ideas, shoot them my way - I have all the instrumentation available (GC/MS, LC/MS/MS, NMR, UV-Vis, IR, etc.).

In fact I am trying to find the nicotine levels in my plants. I am curious to see how nicotine levels vary among varieties. I also want to see how nicotine levels vary from leaf position. Just having a bit of fun. Maybe we should move this to the Science section?

Marco

 

[deluxestogie]

Turkish Surprise

Of more than a dozen varieties of "Turkish" tobacco that I've grown, the most surprising has been Mutki.

This Mutki appears to have the columnar shape typical of Turkish varieties, and the thin, smooth green leaf of many of the Basma types. But the leaves measure 22" x 13", averaging 17 leaves per plant.

The Mutki seems to be derived from a Basma type hybridized with a larger-leafed non-Turkish variety, perhaps Havana or Sumatra.

Touching on the crossing experiment again, here are the leaf shapes and sizes for comparison. The Mt. Pima leaf is quite similar to that of Papante, shown here.

Papante compared to Little Dutch.

Sacred Cornplanter--clearly a rustica.

My challenge of late has been to move hanging leaf from my curing shed as soon as the lamina show no green. I move it into my enclosed back porch, which tends to be considerably drier than the shed. I'm currently doing a 4 week run of mud lugs in my Cozy Can, as a kiln, @ 125ºF. We'll see how that goes.

Bob

EDIT: How about this red Turkish blossom!

 

[Chicken]

i really like that turkish plant,

my turkish plants { ottoman and bursa] have small leaves, i like the big leaf<

 

[deluxestogie]

ARS-GRIN observations of Mutki leaf size and plant height are consistent with mine, so I can assume that there was not a seed mix-up. They classify it as "Oriental." I'm eager to see if it tastes and smells Oriental.

Bob

 

[Chicken]

i may want to get some of them seeds when the time comes,

17 leaves per plant, is a good number, how wide, is the plant,?

and are they sticky with resign?

 

[deluxestogie]

The Mutki leaves are not very sticky, and show no obvious fuzz. With 22" leaves and a wide leaf angle, the plant is roughly 44" across. Seed from it (and all my other new varieties) will go to the FTT seed bank in the winter.

Bob

 

[Chicken]

i got a feeling, the seed-bank,

come december, will have a very wide range assortment of seed,

 

[deluxestogie]

Just a quick measurement pic of my Mutki:

If it were half as long and half as wide, it would look to all the world like Smyrna.

Bob

 

[BarG]

As usual thats some great picks of your leafs and plants. I was surprised to see the length on the little dutch. And A fine looking blossom on the Balikesir. My Huehue tenago is the only plant that had white blossoms so far. Still waiting on 2 varietys.

All the seed varietys you provided me this year did extremely well. Thank you. I grew anywhere from to 30 -40 of each type and all handled my climate very well this year.

 

[Tom_in_TN]

Hey, Bob. You are doing a great job keeping everyone up-to-date on the new varieties you are growing this season. Really good info. That red blossom on the Balikeshir reminds me of the red blossoms on the Copan.

The Izmir Ozbas plants I planted had done so well up until some some friggin' moths layed their eggs on them about 3 weeks ago. Now, the dang caterpillars, not hornworms, have mangled up a bunch of tip leaves pretty bad. Can I just top those plants, you-know, clip-off the stem and mangled leaves and let one or 2 good suckers replace the main growing stem and still get some decent tip (ootz) leaves? Need some advice. They did not hit the Xanthi Yaka plants too much and those are OK, so far. Thanks.