I found this and think it's really interesting reading:
http://www.smokemag.com/0304/feature.htm
Hope I'm not the only one how like to read it..
http://www.smokemag.com/0304/feature.htm
Hope I'm not the only one how like to read it..
Difference between criollo 98 and vuelta abajo?
- Thread starter SmokesAhoy
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Hasse, Interesting article, even though it is over 11 years old.
Bob
Bob
Yes Bob I notice that. Funny thing is: I don't read today's newspaper because it's old news (for me). But I do read about tobacco varieties made between 1950-1980. But offcourse you have a big point
Corojo, Criollo, Coroja, Vuelta Abajo--terms sorely abused by the cigar marketeers, as well as the "historians" of Cuban tobacco.
During the early 20th century, tobacco growers in the Vuelta Abajo of Cuba had no idea what variety (varieties) of tobacco they were growing. Each year, they would plant transplants purchased willy-nilly from local, commercial tobacco plant nurseries. These nurseries, aside from paying zero attention to the then new science of Mendelian genetics, harvested their seed randomly from mixed varieties of plants growing in convenient plantations. Even casual observers noted the wild variability of tobacco varieties growing in individual fields of the Vuelta Abajo. [Hasselbring H: Types of Cuban Tobacco, Botanical Gazette, Vol. 53, No. 2 (Feb., 1912), pp. 113-126]
If we add to this the revelation (in the article Hasse posted) that "Corojo" was simply the name of one of the many fincas (plantations) within the Vuelta Abajo, and that "Criollo" only means "native," then we've got a real mess on our hands.
Well into the first half of the 20th century, the cigar tobacco grown in Cuba was a random mix, from which, eventually, a few genetically stable varieties were named. (None of this minimal progress was helped by the misguided, Lamarckian geneticists provided by the Soviet Union, following Castro's ascension. They didn't "subscribe" to the genetic concepts of Gregor Mendel.)
So, my personal verdict is, when examining Corojo, Criollo, Coroja and Vuelta Abajo tobacco varieties, what you see is what you get. There is no heritage--no heirloom magic. Yes, some great tobacco came from (and comes from) Cuba and the Vuelta Abajo, but these particular names have such a wobbly provenance that they could be just about anything.
Bob
During the early 20th century, tobacco growers in the Vuelta Abajo of Cuba had no idea what variety (varieties) of tobacco they were growing. Each year, they would plant transplants purchased willy-nilly from local, commercial tobacco plant nurseries. These nurseries, aside from paying zero attention to the then new science of Mendelian genetics, harvested their seed randomly from mixed varieties of plants growing in convenient plantations. Even casual observers noted the wild variability of tobacco varieties growing in individual fields of the Vuelta Abajo. [Hasselbring H: Types of Cuban Tobacco, Botanical Gazette, Vol. 53, No. 2 (Feb., 1912), pp. 113-126]
If we add to this the revelation (in the article Hasse posted) that "Corojo" was simply the name of one of the many fincas (plantations) within the Vuelta Abajo, and that "Criollo" only means "native," then we've got a real mess on our hands.
Well into the first half of the 20th century, the cigar tobacco grown in Cuba was a random mix, from which, eventually, a few genetically stable varieties were named. (None of this minimal progress was helped by the misguided, Lamarckian geneticists provided by the Soviet Union, following Castro's ascension. They didn't "subscribe" to the genetic concepts of Gregor Mendel.)
So, my personal verdict is, when examining Corojo, Criollo, Coroja and Vuelta Abajo tobacco varieties, what you see is what you get. There is no heritage--no heirloom magic. Yes, some great tobacco came from (and comes from) Cuba and the Vuelta Abajo, but these particular names have such a wobbly provenance that they could be just about anything.
Bob
Ben Brand
Well-Known Member
Bob
I am planting Criollo, Coroja and Vuelta Abajo this year, does that mean that all 3 off them could basically be the same tobacco!! or am I miss reading what you say!
I am planting Criollo, Coroja and Vuelta Abajo this year, does that mean that all 3 off them could basically be the same tobacco!! or am I miss reading what you say!
Smokin Harley
Well-Known Member
I am here to tell you the Criollo 98 and the Vuelta Abajo are most definitely not the same . The Coroja I will not find out about until next season(first on the list of seeds to plant along with a big handful of other Cuban seed types.)
Ben Brand
Well-Known Member
I have planted Criollo98 and Vuelta Abajo in the past and they are definitely not the same. First year that I sow Criollo and Coroja ( both were a pain to germinate), so I will be able to judge the likeness by March 2016.
Same taste perhaps? Well not same but there is a flavor component they all seem to possess.
Growing characteristics might change which would make sense as they keep crossing with other varieties to defeat diseases.
My original question was if the vuelta which I've never tried has that same flavor we associate with Cuban cigar tobacco, and based on reading this thread it seems obvious that it must, however the vuelta might be slightly different due to genetic drift over the decades.
Fun stuff, this hobby.
Growing characteristics might change which would make sense as they keep crossing with other varieties to defeat diseases.
My original question was if the vuelta which I've never tried has that same flavor we associate with Cuban cigar tobacco, and based on reading this thread it seems obvious that it must, however the vuelta might be slightly different due to genetic drift over the decades.
Fun stuff, this hobby.
At this point in time, they are clearly different. But they may not be the same Criollo, Corojo, Coroja, Vuelta Abajo that someone else might grow. What I'm saying is that the use of these terms in the holy scripture of cigardom is not all that meaningful.
Bob
I grew Criollo (Ti 1376) PI 405646 and Coroja (GRIN's spelling) PI 405643 last season. The seed came right out of the GRIN package. They looked different from each other while growing. Those that have sampled the leaf notice a distinct flavor difference, but claim that both have a true Cuban flavor and are must haves in the garden. They just came out of the kiln a couple of months ago and I haven't gotten around to trying them myself, I have over 120 different varieties of leaf I have to wade through to sample and taste all of them. That's the result of of those massive seed grow outs over the past couple of seasons, three to four plants of each variety. I'm tobacco variety poor.
I grew Vuelta Abajo PI 405668 this season. The seed came out of the GRIN package. It is the same PI number that Don has and has been grown by several different members. It grew differently than the Criollo (Ti 1376) and Coroja. They all look different from each other while growing. Other members say it also has a true Cuban flavor and tastes different than the others. This one is the favorite of those that have smoked all three. I assume Skychaser sells the same PI number, the pictures on his website look like the Vuelta Abajo that I grew.
Crillo (Ti 1376) plants. This is one of my pet plants in a pot at the house. I grew three more in the patch.
Coroja PI 405643. Also this one at the house and three at the patch.
Vuelta Abajo picture I stole off Skychasers website for comparison. More pictures on his site: http://nwtseeds.com/Vuelta Abajo.htm
My pet Criollo (Ti 1376) bagged.
Criollo (Ti 1376) in the patch:
Coroja PI 405643
Coroja plants in the field:
Smokin Harley
Well-Known Member
Thanks for that incentive picture ...I cant wait to grow Coroja...looks like another beautiful plant.
Wallace: Nice pictures! That "criollo TI1376" will I put one my Grow before I die-list.
I always try to give plenty of info when discussing Criollos. I have four in my seed bank.
Criollo (Ti 1376) -- Cuba by way of GRIN:http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/search.pl?accid=Ti+1376
Criollo 98 -- http://nwtseeds.com/cuban_criollo_98.htm
Criollo (Ti 1547) Cuba via Puerto Rico by way of GRIN: http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/search.pl?accid=Ti+1547
Criollo Colorado -- Argentina by way of GRIN: http://www.ars-grin.gov/cgi-bin/npgs/acc/search.pl?accid=PI+121534
I'm sure there are more out there.
Oy! I'll have to see how many Criollo varieties I have seed for. I may have to move to a bigger place.
Bob
Bob
Mister magic (Bob) think you need a big planet to grow your tobacco one.
have already been asked to ask for some of your (Ars-Grin) seeds, it's unbelievable when I ask people to become members they don't speak English.. And I tell em "not me either"
have already been asked to ask for some of your (Ars-Grin) seeds, it's unbelievable when I ask people to become members they don't speak English.. And I tell em "not me either"
Hasse mentioned Bolivian Criollo Black. I forgot that one. For some reason I have it classed as dark air in my list. Is this correct or would it be a cigar filler?
Here can you found it Wallace:
http://nwtseeds.com/Bolivian Criollo Black.htm
Its Dark and similar to burley. If you ask me it's very similar to Silver river. In my garden Bolivian black seems to make it better. The only things I have problem with it is to take seed from it. The tobacco from it is really good. So every year that I need to take seed I need to take the plant inside..
wrapper
Well-Known Member
Hey Ben - any sign yet of significant differences between these types?
Any notable differences between Criollo 98 and Corojo 99? I know they're essentially offshoots from the same parents, but I'd be curious to know if anyone has notes on flavor, growth habit, or if one is generally superior to the other.
I have never grown Criollo 98.
2017
Corojo 99 is excellent cigar leaf, highly disease resistant, highly productive, and has top leaves that are nearly the same size as bottom leaf. It's one of the few tobacco varieties that I have regularly grown since my first planting of it (and have increased the number of plants). Corojo 99 cures beautifully as stalk-cut, and is delicious only a short interval after kilning.
Bob
2017
Corojo 99 is excellent cigar leaf, highly disease resistant, highly productive, and has top leaves that are nearly the same size as bottom leaf. It's one of the few tobacco varieties that I have regularly grown since my first planting of it (and have increased the number of plants). Corojo 99 cures beautifully as stalk-cut, and is delicious only a short interval after kilning.
Bob
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