China Voodoo 2018 Air-cured and Rajangan
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Good discussion on the video. I found it really difficult to hear.
Bob
Bob
MarcL
Well-Known Member
Transcript from youtube with the inaudible corrections inserted.
I'm Alejandro Turrent from Casa Turrent Cigars. I'm going to tell you how we created this blend. It's called Casa Turrent 1901. We wanted to make a cigar that is a representation of Mexico. We wanted to create a cigar that can fit in most palates, probably not for the really beginner, but for the consumer that enjoys the complex flavors, complex tastes. We know that our tobacco has a lot of flavor, has a lot of richness.
We know that our tobacco lacks a little bit of strength, that's why we thought about blending it with Nicaraguan tobacco which contributes with that. And we started to play around with basically the two main tobacco seeds that we grow in Mexico which is the San Andres Negro and the Criollo San Andres. The San Andres Negro is the original tobacco from the area, and Criollo San Andres is a Cuban seed that we've been growing in San Andres for more than 10 years already.
We started to play, to try with different years. We started to play with different farms. We started to play with different primes of the tobacco. So we found that the blend with the San Andres Negro in the majority had a very, very unique taste combined with the Criollo in a smaller proportion and with less proportion the Nicaraguan tobacco. So the majority of the tobacco that goes in the Casa Turrent is Negro San Andres, then it's Criollo San Andres, and then it's the Nicaraguan.
We, as many other tobacco people know that, the more aging the tobacco is the better. You have to be careful not to go too much because then you start to lose some flavor. So it's a challenge where to stop, when to stop.
So we did a lot of experiments with the San Andres Negro. We aged it for one year and a half, for two years, for three years, and we found that that was the best moment for the tobacco. Also, we found that we needed to age the tobacco slowly, not to rush it, not to get the tobacco with a very high temperature. So that's also the reason why it takes a lot longer.
The Criollo San Andres, it requires also a long time, but not as much because you are looking for a little bit spiciness, a lot of sweetness, a lot of flavors. So if you go too much with the fermentation on the Criollo, you start to lose flavor and strength. So that tobacco didn't stay for too long. We are using the Criollo San Andres that has been aged for about 18 months to 2 years, and the ligero from Esteli we are a using a new blend.
That, since it's a very strong tobacco, the leaves are very thick, very heavy. And it's a lot more fermentation. It can resist higher temperatures. So we knew about our tobacco, but we didn't know too much about the tobacco from Nicaragua. So we started to play around, like I said, with the different tobaccos, with the different cuts, with the different agings. And it took us a long time.
It was a big challenge because when you make a cigar, when you make a blend and you smoke it, you might think that that's the right blend. But if you smoke it maybe weeks after or two months after, it might change a lot. Then you have to start over. So it took us two years to find the right blend. I think what it also offers is a very nice balance which is what you must look for in a cigar.
Of course, the flavor, the aroma, the strength, the combustion, that's something that it should be on the cigar.
The balance is very important. There are some cigars that are very strong at the beginning and very flavorful, but then the enjoyment stops because it becomes sour and it changes the wrong way. So you need to have balance, and that's one of the main challenges when creating a blend.
I'm Alejandro Turrent from Casa Turrent Cigars. I'm going to tell you how we created this blend. It's called Casa Turrent 1901. We wanted to make a cigar that is a representation of Mexico. We wanted to create a cigar that can fit in most palates, probably not for the really beginner, but for the consumer that enjoys the complex flavors, complex tastes. We know that our tobacco has a lot of flavor, has a lot of richness.
We know that our tobacco lacks a little bit of strength, that's why we thought about blending it with Nicaraguan tobacco which contributes with that. And we started to play around with basically the two main tobacco seeds that we grow in Mexico which is the San Andres Negro and the Criollo San Andres. The San Andres Negro is the original tobacco from the area, and Criollo San Andres is a Cuban seed that we've been growing in San Andres for more than 10 years already.
We started to play, to try with different years. We started to play with different farms. We started to play with different primes of the tobacco. So we found that the blend with the San Andres Negro in the majority had a very, very unique taste combined with the Criollo in a smaller proportion and with less proportion the Nicaraguan tobacco. So the majority of the tobacco that goes in the Casa Turrent is Negro San Andres, then it's Criollo San Andres, and then it's the Nicaraguan.
We, as many other tobacco people know that, the more aging the tobacco is the better. You have to be careful not to go too much because then you start to lose some flavor. So it's a challenge where to stop, when to stop.
So we did a lot of experiments with the San Andres Negro. We aged it for one year and a half, for two years, for three years, and we found that that was the best moment for the tobacco. Also, we found that we needed to age the tobacco slowly, not to rush it, not to get the tobacco with a very high temperature. So that's also the reason why it takes a lot longer.
The Criollo San Andres, it requires also a long time, but not as much because you are looking for a little bit spiciness, a lot of sweetness, a lot of flavors. So if you go too much with the fermentation on the Criollo, you start to lose flavor and strength. So that tobacco didn't stay for too long. We are using the Criollo San Andres that has been aged for about 18 months to 2 years, and the ligero from Esteli we are a using a new blend.
That, since it's a very strong tobacco, the leaves are very thick, very heavy. And it's a lot more fermentation. It can resist higher temperatures. So we knew about our tobacco, but we didn't know too much about the tobacco from Nicaragua. So we started to play around, like I said, with the different tobaccos, with the different cuts, with the different agings. And it took us a long time.
It was a big challenge because when you make a cigar, when you make a blend and you smoke it, you might think that that's the right blend. But if you smoke it maybe weeks after or two months after, it might change a lot. Then you have to start over. So it took us two years to find the right blend. I think what it also offers is a very nice balance which is what you must look for in a cigar.
Of course, the flavor, the aroma, the strength, the combustion, that's something that it should be on the cigar.
The balance is very important. There are some cigars that are very strong at the beginning and very flavorful, but then the enjoyment stops because it becomes sour and it changes the wrong way. So you need to have balance, and that's one of the main challenges when creating a blend.
Thanks Marc.
With regard to the two leaf varieties from San Andrés, I'm no longer sure which of those is the...
Since "criollo" means "native born", I assume that Criollo San Andrés is native to the area. I have not performed a detailed scouring of the GRIN database to see if it is also represented. We do know that all Cuban tobacco originated on the eastern slopes of the Andes, but the transfer of it to the Caribbean was likely a few thousand years ago, with the migration of humans to those islands.
On the other hand, Criollo San Andrés might just as easily be a recent import, like the Criollo that's grown in Honduras, Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic.
Bob
I replayed that several times, but couldn't hear which duration was found to be the best moment. I guess he's implying the last of the series--three years.
With regard to the two leaf varieties from San Andrés, I'm no longer sure which of those is the...
The Negro San Andrés is likely a Cuban Vuelta Abajo variety brought to the Vera Cruz area in the late 19th century by German and Cuban immigrants--who began the cigar industry there. This assumption would be in agreement with my impression of the general appearance of the San Andrés plants that I grew.me said:
Since "criollo" means "native born", I assume that Criollo San Andrés is native to the area. I have not performed a detailed scouring of the GRIN database to see if it is also represented. We do know that all Cuban tobacco originated on the eastern slopes of the Andes, but the transfer of it to the Caribbean was likely a few thousand years ago, with the migration of humans to those islands.
On the other hand, Criollo San Andrés might just as easily be a recent import, like the Criollo that's grown in Honduras, Nicaragua and the Dominican Republic.
Bob
ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
He spoke with us at the event on Thursday, and I asked more about it. The Criollo San Andreas is the "Cuban Seed". The San Andreas Negro is the Mexican tobacco. He did not comment on the origins of that one, just that it is the true San Andreas tobacco.This was all quite clear.
The event was at the tobacconist I go to. Turrent makes cigars that contain Latakia specifically for that store. The original blend is Negro San Andreas wrapper and binder, and filler, with the addition of Latakia to the filler. There is a special edition commemorating 30 years of the store being open which uses the Criollo as the binder.
Also, a local microbrewer brought a keg of Latakia stout.
DistillingJim
Well-Known Member
Interesting. I'd always thought tobacco improved with age far beyond 3 years.
DistillingJim
Well-Known Member
I love Latakia. I love stout. But that sounds gross.
Tobacco mellows (loses some harshness) with further age. It also loses various volatile aromatics that may be essential to the aroma you desire. To capture a specific blend, you've got to age it to where you want it. Once it's ensconced within a filler blend and surrounded by a binder and wrapper, it mostly loses its volatiles into the rest of the cigar. The nicotine hardly decreases at all, even after a couple of decades of aging.
I've purchases a number of makes of verified vintage cigars (e.g. 20 years old) from JR Cigars. They always taste pretty much like how I remembered them from ages past. The 23 year old Henry Clay cigars were as potent (and as harsh) as they always had been. I have a single 25 year old Excalibur in my humidor that I've saved for my son. I expect that will be like smoking tiramisu.
Bob
ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
I smoked a bundle of Guaranteed Jamaican cigars that were 10 years old, and they were much improved over the new bundle I bought. I think you notice a big difference with cheaper cigars that might not have been thoroughly fermented and aged to begin with.
ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
I believe I may have heat generation in my kiln. Further readings and monitoring needs to take place, though.
I tied about 150 to 250 air cured Delhi 34 leaves (I didn't count) into eight or so hands on Sunday, misted them, and packed them into a brew bucket. I put a stainless steel lid inside the bucket, and a block of wood so that when I seal the lid on the bucket, the block of wood pushes down on the lid and the tobacco.
The kiln is set for 40C (104) with a 1C differential. (It turns off at 40, and turns on when it drops below 39)
On Monday, the kiln temperature was 105.5, so let's call that the set point. The reading in the center of the tobacco was 105.7. Let's call the difference negligible.
Today, the kiln temperature was 107.5. I assume that this is higher than the kiln temperature on Monday due to the regular fluctuation of temperatures as the heater goes through cycles. However, the center of the tobacco was 109.3. I'll keep monitoring to see if this is just due to inaccuracies or some other source of error, but it looks like automatic heat generation. If the tobacco is consistently hotter than the air around it, it would appear so.
I tied about 150 to 250 air cured Delhi 34 leaves (I didn't count) into eight or so hands on Sunday, misted them, and packed them into a brew bucket. I put a stainless steel lid inside the bucket, and a block of wood so that when I seal the lid on the bucket, the block of wood pushes down on the lid and the tobacco.
The kiln is set for 40C (104) with a 1C differential. (It turns off at 40, and turns on when it drops below 39)
On Monday, the kiln temperature was 105.5, so let's call that the set point. The reading in the center of the tobacco was 105.7. Let's call the difference negligible.
Today, the kiln temperature was 107.5. I assume that this is higher than the kiln temperature on Monday due to the regular fluctuation of temperatures as the heater goes through cycles. However, the center of the tobacco was 109.3. I'll keep monitoring to see if this is just due to inaccuracies or some other source of error, but it looks like automatic heat generation. If the tobacco is consistently hotter than the air around it, it would appear so.
The suspense is killing me.
Bob
Bob
Tutu
Well-Known Member
I'll share a few pictures of the San Andres we import, ferment, sort, and export.
Why does Mexico send it to the DR for fermentation and sorting?
Bob
Bob
Tutu
Well-Known Member
We invest in a farm and purchase their crop, we then ferment, sort and sell ourselves
ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
The experiment had good news and bad news.
Yes. Heat was being generated. The kiln was cycling between 105.5 and 107.5, while the tobacco was 110.0.
I pulled the tobacco out to see that there was mold on the thickest parts of the stems and some damaged leaves. Therefore, I trimmed the ends off, and loaded everything back into the bucket, but loosely, without being packed down, and all the stems at the top. I raised the temperature 4 degrees Celsius to 44C / 111F. I'll check it again in 18 hours, and if the moisture hasn't stabilized, and the mold stopped, I might abandon and raise to 50C. Edit: you know what? Screw it. Not worth the risk. Instinct is telling me, just to go to 120F and just be happy. It's air cured Virginia, after all. I don't need to try to pilone this stuff anyways.
Yes. Heat was being generated. The kiln was cycling between 105.5 and 107.5, while the tobacco was 110.0.
I pulled the tobacco out to see that there was mold on the thickest parts of the stems and some damaged leaves. Therefore, I trimmed the ends off, and loaded everything back into the bucket, but loosely, without being packed down, and all the stems at the top. I raised the temperature 4 degrees Celsius to 44C / 111F. I'll check it again in 18 hours, and if the moisture hasn't stabilized, and the mold stopped, I might abandon and raise to 50C. Edit: you know what? Screw it. Not worth the risk. Instinct is telling me, just to go to 120F and just be happy. It's air cured Virginia, after all. I don't need to try to pilone this stuff anyways.
Levi Gross
Well-Known Member
I’ve been watching this with interest. Hopefully you kill that mold and come out with some GOLD!!!
ChinaVoodoo
Moderator
I laid it all in the sun for an hour and re-inspected. The temperature is up to 118F. I think we're good.
I can't help but wonder what's so different about this experiment, and the real thing. Perhaps it's as Charly says, related to water content. Perhaps it's airflow. Maybe it's because it is because it's bright tobacco. Probably the first two. Have to try it again some other time.
Well, onto this year's tobacco, eh? Not my usual modus, I watered them with a mixed all purpose non-organic fertilizer, just to give them an early kick. The KY17, is still looking like it needs some nutrients.
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